Male vs. Manual/public vs. private question

Page 2 of Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam Who are you to judge our action or inaction? You are right I'm against prop 20, but if you expect me join the slander ... 117 comments | 5801 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #16
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    Great post, ram95.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    Yeah it's called building a program. Just because Male has done it and Manual is doing it, it doesn't mean that it is not worth coming to the table and discussing the issues the public schools seem to have with the private schools.

    I know what you are getting at, but there are differences. Here is the bottom line, Manual is kinda like Notre Dame in that there is a history there, and there is a resurgance, but the big problem is finding the athletes that want to go to such a rigorous academic program or can. St. X and Trinity are like USC and Michigan in that they are good schools that draw from across the nation as well as their own backyards. And Male is like Miami a great team every year that gets pretty much everyone from their own backyard yet still is a top team every year. At least that is how I see it. Trinity and St.X don't have an insurrmountable advantage over these schools, but what the real thing the public private debate is currently ignoring is how long that there has been NO debate. Publics have been complianing for years about certian issues and the basic reply has been, no reply, or a defensive denial.

    Prop 20 will not come to pass in the end ( I believe), and honestly I think the public schools don't really want it to, but I think it is a wake up call to those on the private side that deny that there is any issues to discuss at all when 75% of the public schools seem to think that there is an issue.

    Personaly I want to play the private schools forever, and I hope prop 20 fails , but I think that there should be a certain amount of honest dialoge going on between the administrators to work out these differences. And this petty back biting and bulldogging has to end. How come Manual and Male are the ones being brought up in these threads? I think the answer is that we are the two schools that most likely stand in the way of total dominiation by St. X and Trinity, and that makes us the "enemy". But in an honest dialogue and not the sniping and rhetoric of some holy crusade fights that this has devovled into Manual, Male, St.X and Trinity fans seem to all agree that we want to continue playing for the 4A title. The question is how do we proceed from here? The Publics are flexing their muscle to get the privates attention, is that going to work or are we too far gone now?
    The problem right now is that the only alternatives to Prop 20 are coming from the privates. I don't think that the public schools are interested in negotiating. I agree that Prop 20 will fail. If the publics won't negotiate, where does that leave us? We'll be back doing this again next year. Even here on BGP, where are the good faith alternatives to Prop 20 from the public school backers? What I get from some (the Manual backers being the worst offenders) is an attitude of I'm not in favor of Prop 20, I won't fight against my school voting for it and I won't offer any alternatives.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    What I get from some (the Manual backers being the worst offenders) is an attitude of I'm not in favor of Prop 20, I won't fight against my school voting for it and I won't offer any alternatives.
    Who are you to judge our action or inaction?

    You are right I'm against prop 20, but if you expect me join the slander campaign against Manual that has occured this season, your going to be dissappointed. If so much of the rhetoric weren't so harsh and full of lies we would be less defensive about it.

    People in the Manual camp know that many of us fans don't agree with the support of Prop 20 by the administration. There was even an newspaper article about soccer players who didn't support it as well. The rift is appearent but it doesn't seem to effect the decison making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    Yeah it's called building a program. Just because Male has done it and Manual is doing it, it doesn't mean that it is not worth coming to the table and discussing the issues the public schools seem to have with the private schools.

    I know what you are getting at, but there are differences. Here is the bottom line, Manual is kinda like Notre Dame in that there is a history there, and there is a resurgance, but the big problem is finding the athletes that want to go to such a rigorous academic program or can. St. X and Trinity are like USC and Michigan in that they are good schools that draw from across the nation as well as their own backyards. And Male is like Miami a great team every year that gets pretty much everyone from their own backyard yet still is a top team every year. At least that is how I see it. Trinity and St.X don't have an insurrmountable advantage over these schools, but what the real thing the public private debate is currently ignoring is how long that there has been NO debate. Publics have been complianing for years about certian issues and the basic reply has been, no reply, or a defensive denial.

    Prop 20 will not come to pass in the end ( I believe), and honestly I think the public schools don't really want it to, but I think it is a wake up call to those on the private side that deny that there is any issues to discuss at all when 75% of the public schools seem to think that there is an issue.

    Personaly I want to play the private schools forever, and I hope prop 20 fails , but I think that there should be a certain amount of honest dialoge going on between the administrators to work out these differences. And this petty back biting and bulldogging has to end. How come Manual and Male are the ones being brought up in these threads? I think the answer is that we are the two schools that most likely stand in the way of total dominiation by St. X and Trinity, and that makes us the "enemy". But in an honest dialogue and not the sniping and rhetoric of some holy crusade fights that this has devovled into Manual, Male, St.X and Trinity fans seem to all agree that we want to continue playing for the 4A title. The question is how do we proceed from here? The Publics are flexing their muscle to get the privates attention, is that going to work or are we too far gone now?
    First of all, I don't look at Male or Manual as the enemy. I have great respect for their programs. My father played for Male and both of my grandfathers played for Manual so I do have an affinity for these schools. I also hope that Porp 20 fails. Just as Male or Manual winning state without beating T or X is a hollow victory, T or X winning state without beating Male or Manual along the way is hollow. I used Male and Manual in the thread as the best example of two public schools that draw from the same county, but one school (Manual) has a broader draw base. Male has had less in numbers to work with and accomplished more than Manual because they have had better coaching and better team discipline. The Miami comparison is off base. Are you really trying to tell me that Barret and JCTMS have the lock on the best athletes and that the academics at Manual are a deterrent?
    The point of the thread was to get people, not necessarily Male and Manual people, to think about the advantages of private schools and whether or not those advantages are overemphasized. How do we explain the fact that outside of 4A football, public schools like Boyle Co, Danville, and Belfry have dominated private schools in their classes?
    Too much emphasis in this debate has been on what the private schools can do to limit themselves or how they can compromise and give up advantages we've earned and there has not been enough emphasis on what the public schools can do to make themselves better. The state needs to look at programs like Male, Manual, Boyle, Danville, etc. and try to emulate their success instead of taking the easy way out.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    The problem right now is that the only alternatives to Prop 20 are coming from the privates. I don't think that the public schools are interested in negotiating. I agree that Prop 20 will fail. If the publics won't negotiate, where does that leave us? We'll be back doing this again next year. Even here on BGP, where are the good faith alternatives to Prop 20 from the public school backers? What I get from some (the Manual backers being the worst offenders) is an attitude of I'm not in favor of Prop 20, I won't fight against my school voting for it and I won't offer any alternatives.
    Anytime we try to talk about it we get accused of things. Mainly the issues are this, finacial aid - this may not be the case but it appears to many in the community that packages of admissitions materials including the forms for financial aid end up in the hands of good athletes, and kids from the catholic school programs, but not the average kid in the non-Catholic community. That looks bad. It may not be the case I am not an expert but that is the preception. This has been brought up and flatly denied even when we have kids stepping forth and admitting that they got the stuff while other class mates of theirs did not. There has been no plan from the privates to help in this matter other than a flat denial that goes against what the parents and kids in our schools are telling us. It is a he said she said kinda thing. But all that is happening is a flat denial no plan or a system that would prove that this is not the case.
    Second, the 20 mile rule proposed by the privates would include not only residents within the 20 circle but EVERY resident of EVERY county that is touches. That would include all of Jefferson, Bullitt, Meade, Oldham, Nelson Shelby, Spencer in KY and Floyd Co., Harrison,Washington, and Clark Co. Indiana for St. X and Jefferson, Bullitt, Henry, Oldham,Nelson, Shelby,Spencer, Floyd Harrison Washington and Clark Co. in Indiana for Trinity. Considering that Providence has it's smallest class in years coming in this year how is it right that St. X and Trinity should be pulling Catholic kids from that area? That is hurting the small catholic schools in Southern Indiana. So why can't the pulling of athletes stop at the River? Especially when it would help small catholic school programs over there survive? I mean we catholics consider the river the boundry line for our Archdiocese, why can't we respect that for schools as well?

    I am not fighting one way or another, I am simply telling you that these are issues that the public schools are upset about. I for one think that if X and T limited themselves to Jefferson County, Shelby, Bullitt, Meade, Spencer,and Oldham Co. in Ky. That would go a long way to ease tensions. But that has been repeatedly thrown off the table. It goes both ways. I know the privates have issues with alot of the publics too. But the issues aren't being discussed at all unless there is an 800 pound gorillia in the room called prop 20. And that is sad! Please don't take this post as me saying that I put 100% of the blame on the Privates either, I am not. But I think that this pot has been boiling for a long time that something needs to release some pressure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam
    Who are you to judge our action or inaction?

    You are right I'm against prop 20, but if you expect me join the slander campaign against Manual that has occured this season, your going to be dissappointed. If so much of the rhetoric weren't so harsh and full of lies we would be less defensive about it.

    People in the Manual camp know that many of us fans don't agree with the support of Prop 20 by the administration. There was even an newspaper article about soccer players who didn't support it as well. The rift is appearent but it doesn't seem to effect the decison making.
    And your post is still devoid of ANY reaonable proposals. Thus illustrating my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    And your post is still devoid of ANY reaonable proposals. Thus illustrating my point.
    My proposal is not to pass prop 20.

    Attempts to "level the playing feild" just change who has the advantage, I think they are pointless.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    And your post is still devoid of ANY reaonable proposals. Thus illustrating my point.
    I gave you some that you have not addressed either. Please Everyone let's keep this debate civil and above board. Stick to the issues not the people!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    First of all, I don't look at Male or Manual as the enemy. I have great respect for their programs. My father played for Male and both of my grandfathers played for Manual so I do have an affinity for these schools. I also hope that Porp 20 fails. Just as Male or Manual winning state without beating T or X is a hollow victory, T or X winning state without beating Male or Manual along the way is hollow. I used Male and Manual in the thread as the best example of two public schools that draw from the same county, but one school (Manual) has a broader draw base. Male has had less in numbers to work with and accomplished more than Manual because they have had better coaching and better team discipline. The Miami comparison is off base. Are you really trying to tell me that Barret and JCTMS have the lock on the best athletes and that the academics at Manual are a deterrent?
    The point of the thread was to get people, not necessarily Male and Manual people, to think about the advantages of private schools and whether or not those advantages are overemphasized. How do we explain the fact that outside of 4A football, public schools like Boyle Co, Danville, and Belfry have dominated private schools in their classes?
    Too much emphasis in this debate has been on what the private schools can do to limit themselves or how they can compromise and give up advantages we've earned and there has not been enough emphasis on what the public schools can do to make themselves better. The state needs to look at programs like Male, Manual, Boyle, Danville, etc. and try to emulate their success instead of taking the easy way out.
    Good post! I agree that publics need to raise the bar not lower it.

    But on Male and Manual:
    Yes I believe academics can be a double edged sword! It can be a deterrent, Notre Dame has been saying that for years and you are right coaching can make a huge difference! However there have been more than a few top players out there that applied to Manual and were denied entry that later played VERY inspired ball against us. And Male has built a program and yes I think that alot of parents that want there kids to go to Male to play football start early getting their kids in to Greathouse elementry or Barret Middle because they know the end game is Male. Just like alot of kids are sent to Noe and Meyzeek knowing that Manual is the end game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    Anytime we try to talk about it we get accused of things. Mainly the issues are this, finacial aid - this may not be the case but it appears to many in the community that packages of admissitions materials including the forms for financial aid end up in the hands of good athletes, and kids from the catholic school programs, but not the average kid in the non-Catholic community. That looks bad. It may not be the case I am not an expert but that is the preception. This has been brought up and flatly denied even when we have kids stepping forth and admitting that they got the stuff while other class mates of theirs did not. There has been no plan from the privates to help in this matter other than a flat denial that goes against what the parents and kids in our schools are telling us. It is a he said she said kinda thing. But all that is happening is a flat denial no plan or a system that would prove that this is not the case.
    Second, the 20 mile rule proposed by the privates would include not only residents within the 20 circle but EVERY resident of EVERY county that is touches. That would include all of Jefferson, Bullitt, Meade, Oldham, Nelson Shelby, Spencer in KY and Floyd Co., Harrison,Washington, and Clark Co. Indiana for St. X and Jefferson, Bullitt, Henry, Oldham,Nelson, Shelby,Spencer, Floyd Harrison Washington and Clark Co. in Indiana for Trinity. Considering that Providence has it's smallest class in years coming in this year how is it right that St. X and Trinity should be pulling Catholic kids from that area? That is hurting the small catholic schools in Southern Indiana. So why can't the pulling of athletes stop at the River? Especially when it would help small catholic school programs over there survive? I mean we catholics consider the river the boundry line for our Archdiocese, why can't we respect that for schools as well?

    I am not fighting one way or another, I am simply telling you that these are issues that the public schools are upset about. I for one think that if X and T limited themselves to Jefferson County, Shelby, Bullitt, Meade, Spencer,and Oldham Co. in Ky. That would go a long way to ease tensions. But that has been repeatedly thrown off the table. It goes both ways. I know the privates have issues with alot of the publics too. But the issues aren't being discussed at all unless there is an 800 pound gorillia in the room called prop 20. And that is sad! Please don't take this post as me saying that I put 100% of the blame on the Privates either, I am not. But I think that this pot has been boiling for a long time that something needs to release some pressure!
    I have suggested something to ease the financial aid fears. I would prohibit all contact between coaches and potential students. That would hold true for both public and private schools. Contact would be evidence on its face of a violation. Would that stop promising athletes from hearing about the private schools and potential financial aid? No it wouldn't, but it would keep the schools from being involved. Keep in mind that anyone can get information about financial aid from the web site. For any students interested in Trinity, http://www.thsrock.net/index.php?p=177. You don't have to be a good athlete to apply.

    Regarding boundaries private schools , the privates have suggested a twenty mile limit that would apply only to varsity and would exempt identified feeder schools. I would suggest as a compromise that the twenty mile limit apply to all levels of competition and the identified feeder school exemption be kept. That way, kids with a history of Catholic education could continue, regardless of where they live.

    Out of state players is not just a private school issue. I think they should be allowed, but as long as any decision applies to ALL schools, I could live with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    I have suggested something to ease the financial aid fears. I would prohibit all contact between coaches and potential students. That would hold true for both public and private schools. Contact would be evidence on its face of a violation. Would that stop promising athletes from hearing about the private schools and potential financial aid? No it wouldn't, but it would keep the schools from being involved. Keep in mind that anyone can get information about financial aid from the web site. For any students interested in Trinity, http://www.thsrock.net/index.php?p=177. You don't have to be a good athlete to apply.

    Regarding boundaries private schools , the privates have suggested a twenty mile limit that would apply only to varsity and would exempt identified feeder schools. I would suggest as a compromise that the twenty mile limit apply to all levels of competition and the identified feeder school exemption be kept. That way, kids with a history of Catholic education could continue, regardless of where they live.

    Out of state players is not just a private school issue. I think they should be allowed, but as long as any decision applies to ALL schools, I could live with it.
    The thing is you have as much a chance/desire of convincing Trinity and St. X of doing those things as I had of making Mrs. Keepers not pushing prop 20. Until the school administrators start talking what we think is pointless.

    Which is way I think you are being a bit harsh on us Manual people when you say "What I get from some (the Manual backers being the worst offenders) is an attitude of I'm not in favor of Prop 20, I won't fight against my school voting for it and I won't offer any alternatives." We have offered what we have seen as fair alternatives for years to no avail, which led to the current state of our hands being in the air, saying this is not what we want but we understand that nothing else is getting anyones attention either. Like I said this is not a new thing that the publics just said forget it we quit. This has been a matter mired in accusations, innuendo, miscommunication and mistrust for years. And it is both sides fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    Anytime we try to talk about it we get accused of things. Mainly the issues are this, finacial aid - this may not be the case but it appears to many in the community that packages of admissitions materials including the forms for financial aid end up in the hands of good athletes, and kids from the catholic school programs, but not the average kid in the non-Catholic community. That looks bad. It may not be the case I am not an expert but that is the preception. This has been brought up and flatly denied even when we have kids stepping forth and admitting that they got the stuff while other class mates of theirs did not. There has been no plan from the privates to help in this matter other than a flat denial that goes against what the parents and kids in our schools are telling us. It is a he said she said kinda thing. But all that is happening is a flat denial no plan or a system that would prove that this is not the case.
    Second, the 20 mile rule proposed by the privates would include not only residents within the 20 circle but EVERY resident of EVERY county that is touches. That would include all of Jefferson, Bullitt, Meade, Oldham, Nelson Shelby, Spencer in KY and Floyd Co., Harrison,Washington, and Clark Co. Indiana for St. X and Jefferson, Bullitt, Henry, Oldham,Nelson, Shelby,Spencer, Floyd Harrison Washington and Clark Co. in Indiana for Trinity. Considering that Providence has it's smallest class in years coming in this year how is it right that St. X and Trinity should be pulling Catholic kids from that area? That is hurting the small catholic schools in Southern Indiana. So why can't the pulling of athletes stop at the River? Especially when it would help small catholic school programs over there survive? I mean we catholics consider the river the boundry line for our Archdiocese, why can't we respect that for schools as well?

    I am not fighting one way or another, I am simply telling you that these are issues that the public schools are upset about. I for one think that if X and T limited themselves to Jefferson County, Shelby, Bullitt, Meade, Spencer,and Oldham Co. in Ky. That would go a long way to ease tensions. But that has been repeatedly thrown off the table. It goes both ways. I know the privates have issues with alot of the publics too. But the issues aren't being discussed at all unless there is an 800 pound gorillia in the room called prop 20. And that is sad! Please don't take this post as me saying that I put 100% of the blame on the Privates either, I am not. But I think that this pot has been boiling for a long time that something needs to release some pressure!
    The whole no boundaries issue is way overblown. The vast majority, 95%+ boys on the team are from local louisville catholic schools, most probably within a ten mile radius.
    About half of all students at Trinity get financial aide which ranges from a few hundred dollars to half of tuition. I understand that many of the people who voted for Prop 20 are uninformed about this process. Financial aide is determined by a third party unintersted in your child's athletic ability. If a family has an interest in financial aide they can get the application simply by asking. Things may be different now, but when I was applying at Trinity everybody got the aide information, whether you asked for it or not. Very few people, and certainly not the coaches, at Trinity know who is getting aide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    The whole no boundaries issue is way overblown. The vast majority, 95%+ boys on the team are from local louisville catholic schools, most probably within a ten mile radius.
    About half of all students at Trinity get financial aide which ranges from a few hundred dollars to half of tuition. I understand that many of the people who voted for Prop 20 are uninformed about this process. Financial aide is determined by a third party unintersted in your child's athletic ability. If a family has an interest in financial aide they can get the application simply by asking. Things may be different now, but when I was applying at Trinity everybody got the aide information, whether you asked for it or not. Very few people, and certainly not the coaches, at Trinity know who is getting aide.
    I think if they weren't some of the best talent coming out of southern Indiana though it would be viewed differently. And the financial situation maybe as above board as can be but there are alot of students that attend public schools whose parents tell a different story when their kids were courted. Maybe that is all lies. I don't know! But there is a public relations problem in the community that suggest that things are not as the official process suggest it should be, maybe it is bogus, maybe it is boosters doing things that they should not outside the view or range of the schools vision, or maybe it is all bogus. But even if every private and public program in the state is squeaky clean there is a problem if 3/4 th's the schools administrators out there think it is a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    The thing is you have as much a chance/desire of convincing Trinity and St. X of doing those things as I had of making Mrs. Keepers not pushing prop 20. Until the school administrators start talking what we think is pointless.

    Which is way I think you are being a bit harsh on us Manual people when you say "What I get from some (the Manual backers being the worst offenders) is an attitude of I'm not in favor of Prop 20, I won't fight against my school voting for it and I won't offer any alternatives." We have offered what we have seen as fair alternatives for years to no avail, which led to the current state of our hands being in the air, saying this is not what we want but we understand that nothing else is getting anyones attention either. Like I said this is not a new thing that the publics just said forget it we quit. This has been a matter mired in accusations, innuendo, miscommunication and mistrust for years. And it is both sides fault.
    What I suggested is close to what the Catholic schools have already offered. What are these things you have offered as suggestions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    What I suggested is close to what the Catholic schools have already offered. What are these things you have offered as suggestions?
    Limit enrollment only to the Archdiocese of Louisville area and only counties that border around Louisville. Ie. Oldham, Shelby, Bullitt, Hardin, Spencer, and Jefferson. If indeed 95% of the teams talent comes from within Jefferson county then this even gives you the surrounding counties for those catholic families and alumni that live in Shelbyville, Mt. Washington, Hillview, Crestwood, Radcliff E-town and Sheperdsville. No Indiana kids. I think that is fair. Also I think that there has to be more dialogue and accountablity placed on the KHSAA to oversee the distribution of finacial aid to athletes, a clearing house of sorts, as long as names aren't published I think it would be good for the schools to report the average income of the parents of student athletes and just how much work study and financial aid is given out to athletes as compared to the average student. As long as no confidencial information given out, it would go a long way to show to the public that things are actually above board. And make limits St. X says that parents have to pay 50% tution, and that is already the case. Ok then put the KHSAA clearing house there in place to monitor that as part of eligiblity, same with grades and such.

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