Issues not being discussed!

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    Issues not being discussed!

    I personally hope the problems are not expected to be fixed by seperating Public and Private from Post Season play. I dont think that would fix the problems that exist between the two sectors. It doesnt seem very popular in Tennessee. I have friends and family on both sides and this proposal would hurt all involved. But some serious imbalances do appear to exist. It seems to me the difference is not between private and public but between size and selection process and of course MONEY.

    SIZE
    The big two privates St. X and Trinity dont have a huge advantage against the big two publics in JCPS, Male and Manual, in size (about 40% more boys to choose from, privates 1400 vs Male and Manual approx 1000) but they do against most others. I dont hear people complaining to much about DeSales, Holy Cross, Presentation, the smaller private schools. What are the comparisons in the girls sports of the largest all girls schools? How do you level that playing field? When you play Trinity or St. X in football they have 100+ kids in full uniform ready to take the field, some publics that they compete with will be lucky to have 50 kids in uniform on the sidelines. Doesnt that seem out of balance? Have the largest schools just gotten to large?

    SELECTION PROCESS
    The Privates and at least Public Magnet schools in Jefferson County have distinct advantages in their selection process over many other publics. Of course the privates select based on financial ability, grades. etc and the magnets supposedly on academics. I know the process at the magnets is not supposed to involve athletics to heavily, but its an extra curricular that is taken into consideration and without a doubt sometimes with more weight than others.

    MONEY
    It seems that some publics are at a disadvantage because of their economic limitations when compared to other schools. Lets face it high school sports is not what it used to be, most serious teen age athletes are competing year round or close to it with travel teams, club teams, all star teams etc...
    Alot of the "off season" competition is much better than high school sports.
    However some kids are limited to the amount of "off season" participation due to financial issues. This is more of a problem for public school athletes than private school. I would guess the level of participation with sports among public schools is declinining when compared, sport by sport, year by year. Isnt the whole idea of High School sports to get the kids to participate and learn through the sport and to help keep them out trouble?

    Volleyball is a good expample. Louisville has a fantastic club organization that produces some of the best players in the country. The club is great and I dont see a problem with it, I wish more sports had similar clubs that were as successful. However the best players wind up at a few select schools, mostly Private. Why arent more public school kids involved with this club, MONEY. I dont see a problem with this whole set up until Public high schools are expected to compete fairly against these High School teams full of elite/club players. Its just not realistic. I dont have an answer but its not the same playing field. In these types of circumstances I dont see it ever being competitive. Is winning so important that this needs to change or will everyone be satisfied to compete with the best knowing the odds are stacked against them and satisfied with the moral victory of playing their best?

    SCHEDULING/SPENDING
    What about the scheduling, arent the publics held to a different standard than private? I have heard people talk about a "Master Schedule" that public schools are held to but not Privates, is this true? It seems that the privates play alot more out of state competition, is this because they can afford it and publics can not? This could be a positive or a negative, but shouldnt all schools be held to the same standard? Should there be caps put on how much a school can spend on sports, traveling, equipment, facilities...? I know some of the private schools have used public facilities in football for years, will the same be true of publics being able to use the privates new football stadiums?

    Most complaints that I have heard are in regard to the largest of the Private Schools. Have they simply become to large with to much budget for ALL public schools to be able to compete? We already have classes in Football and Basketball, so its not like the state champions of a given class can claim to be the outright best as it is now. How do you know if you win class 4A that you could beat the champion in class 3A or the other class champions? But you have to also ask the question what satisfaction is there in winning a championship against inferior programs? Should an elite division be established based on enrollment numbers, monies, club teams support???? An elite division that could compete across state lines in post season play. It would be cool to see X and Trinity playing teams from IN/OH/TN like Indy Cathedral, Cincy's St. X Moeller, Clevelands' St. Ed's, TN's Father Ryan in post season play for a National or Regional Championship? This of course would widen the divide between public and private, I guess it all depends on the objectives for youth sports.

    I dont have any answers, only questions. I hope instead of impeding the competition that a committee could be developed to identify the real problems and work to a common goal.
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    ram95's Avatar
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    First of all your numbers are wrong, Manual has closer to 750 boys on average, almost half what Trinity and St.X have, not that it matters we still field competitive teams and I am againt prop20. I am just against misinformation.

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    Size: Yes T and X are larger and have the advantage of more boys to choose from. The 100 size roster is not a point. Public schools could field 100 size rosters. Girls single sex private schools are not as large as the boys because there are more girls schools. The number of players on the roster isn't the deciding factor. Highlands (a small 3A public school) competes just fine with T and X with a 60 man roster.

    Selection procees:
    Private schools main selection is the ability to pay. Magnets follow the KHSAA guidelines for recruiting.

    Money:
    Paying for club sports is just as much a "problem" for private school students as it is for public school students, maybe more so since they also have to pay tuition.

    Scheduling/Spending:
    Highlands (a public school) has played in various "bowl" and "classic" games including out of state at the Bengals stadium. They also put turf on their field with private donations. Many other schools (both private and public) have upgraded facilities. Some public schools (see S. Alexander's offer to put turf in at Boone Co.) have not due to "red tape".

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    02Ram54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Play No Work
    Size: Yes T and X are larger and have the advantage of more boys to choose from. The 100 size roster is not a point. Public schools could field 100 size rosters. Girls single sex private schools are not as large as the boys because there are more girls schools. The number of players on the roster isn't the deciding factor. Highlands (a small 3A public school) competes just fine with T and X with a 60 man roster.

    Selection procees:
    Private schools main selection is the ability to pay. Magnets follow the KHSAA guidelines for recruiting.

    Money:
    Paying for club sports is just as much a "problem" for private school students as it is for public school students, maybe more so since they also have to pay tuition.


    Scheduling/Spending:
    Highlands (a public school) has played in various "bowl" and "classic" games including out of state at the Bengals stadium. They also put turf on their field with private donations. Many other schools (both private and public) have upgraded facilities. Some public schools (see S. Alexander's offer to put turf in at Boone Co.) have not due to "red tape".
    Look at it from another angle, one used to describe performance on standardized testing:

    well to do kids get tutoring, coaching, books and lots of extras to prepare them for the SATs, and it shows in their scores. Might club sports provide the same sort of benefit for those that can afford it, which would include a higher percentage of private school kids than the general population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    Look at it from another angle, one used to describe performance on standardized testing:

    well to do kids get tutoring, coaching, books and lots of extras to prepare them for the SATs, and it shows in their scores. Might club sports provide the same sort of benefit for those that can afford it, which would include a higher percentage of private school kids than the general population?
    Yes.
    What is the solution? Should the KHSAA fund club sports for public school students until the number equals private schools students playing club sports?
    Should the state of KY refund taxes to public school students so they can afford to play club sports? What about private students that cannot afford club sports?
    While we are at it, what about students from some public schools that cannot afford new band instruments while other public schools can? What about private schools that cannot afford a band?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    Look at it from another angle, one used to describe performance on standardized testing:

    well to do kids get tutoring, coaching, books and lots of extras to prepare them for the SATs, and it shows in their scores. Might club sports provide the same sort of benefit for those that can afford it, which would include a higher percentage of private school kids than the general population?
    So the real basis for inequity is financial status. If that is the case then make the division based on the median income of the parents. I'll jump out on a limb and speculate that the median income at Ballard, Male and Manual is as high as it is at Trinity. I'll stay out on that limb and bet that the median income at those three schools is higher than it is at DeSales or Holy Cross. What is the point. Income is not the same at all schools and parents with more resources are able to provide those resources to their children.

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    TonyDanza's Avatar
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    What time is the meeting today?

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    oldschoolwrestler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eville dad
    I personally hope the problems are not expected to be fixed by seperating Public and Private from Post Season play. I dont think that would fix the problems that exist between the two sectors. .
    Excellent view. (I didn't want to quote the entire reply)

    The line has been drawn in the sand and people have decided to stand on one side or the other.

    The basic question is this Is there a problem? One side says there is no problem and the other side believes there is a problem. This debate has been bogged down with the poor solutions that we have been presented with.

    IMO because we are discussion this proves there is a problem. Its kind of like deciding if a person is an alcoholic or not. The alcoholic and his friends may say he is not, while others say he is an alcoholic.

    I along with other agree that there is a problem, but we also realize that the answers are not the solutions that we have to choose from. (KHSAA propositions)

    I think that if we can get over the hump and agree first that there is a problem then we may be able to solve the problem that will be equally expectable to both sides. Im not talking about a compromise or a lesser of two evils. Im talking about a real answer to the problem.

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    Lets also throw this out here. Club sports or AAU is a little different than High School. If your good enough, not even great, and you can't afford to play on the team. The coaches , atleast good ones will always find away for you to get the money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolwrestler
    Excellent view. (I didn't want to quote the entire reply)

    The line has been drawn in the sand and people have decided to stand on one side or the other.

    The basic question is this Is there a problem? One side says there is no problem and the other side believes there is a problem. This debate has been bogged down with the poor solutions that we have been presented with.

    IMO because we are discussion this proves there is a problem. Its kind of like deciding if a person is an alcoholic or not. The alcoholic and his friends may say he is not, while others say he is an alcoholic.

    I along with other agree that there is a problem, but we also realize that the answers are not the solutions that we have to choose from. (KHSAA propositions)

    I think that if we can get over the hump and agree first that there is a problem then we may be able to solve the problem that will be equally expectable to both sides. Im not talking about a compromise or a lesser of two evils. Im talking about a real answer to the problem.

    I agree there is a problem but it has nothing to do with private versus public.
    It goes back to the fact that there are a select group of schools (both public and private) that are going to win the majority of state championships now and in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDanza
    What time is the meeting today?
    The adgenda is attached.

    http://www.khsaa.org/annualmeeting/2...yorder2005.pdf
    The discussion was this morning. The voting is going on now.

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    TonyDanza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    The adgenda is attached.

    http://www.khsaa.org/annualmeeting/2...yorder2005.pdf
    The discussion was this morning. The voting is going on now.

    Thanks!

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    What will continue to contribute to a big difference is that nearly all of the 100 freshman on the StX and T teams have had dreams and intentions of playing football at those respective schools. Of the 36 to 40 freshmen players at Manual, probably half of those were encouraged to come out during orientation. Even if Manual were to get a hundred boys to come out, it would not likely be adding much more in talent or experiance (my team had a total of 7 players who had played before highschool) to the mix.

    Regardless of that, I'd rather be a part of the 36 that get the oppritunity to topple the big dog.

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    TonyDanza's Avatar
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    Just called C-J...no word yet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDanza
    Just called C-J...no word yet!
    Come on Tony...a BIG TIME media star such as yourself cannot wrench this info out of the session? You may have to resort to more devious tactics.

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