Is the KHSAA ready to impose the "Death Penalty" on Covington Holy Cross?

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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    I haven't read this entire thread so if this has been asked....

    Death penalty? What would that look like in high school? Has it ever been levied in KY?
    Not that I'm aware of. There have been numerous cases of fines and/or postseason bans going all the way back to the 1930s, but I know of no instances where a program was shut down. I'm not even sure the KHSAA can do that.
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  2. #77

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    @Pete Mitchell , what are the motivations of the accusers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Mitchell View Post
    Too much to address, and I don't believe this is the proper forum anyway. But to be brief, and I will address only the allegations that I have heard second hand have been submitted to the KHSAA pertaining to events over the last 10 months or so, there has been no "cheating". There has been no violation of the bylaws. The bylaws permit contact between coaches and athletes from other schools that is "normal and appropriate". It is permitted for AAU coaches, who are also high school coaches, to coach kids from other schools. That is "normal and appropriate". You need only look around state at the top AAU programs to see the overlap. It is also not forbidden for kids at one school to be friends with kids from another school and, by natural extension, with their parents. None of that is forbidden, or in violation of Bylaw 16 or any other bylaw.

    No one is alleging, as has been suggested here, that "violations are occurring everywhere, so Holy Cross should not be punished when everyone else is doing it." No one. Quite to the contrary, I assume that all of the other high school coaches who also coach AAU or summer teams composed of kids from other schools are compliant, that that is "normal and appropriate contact", but not because I want to believe it, but rather because the KHSAA says it is and permits it. I recognize the danger, that the AAU coach has the opportunity to influence kids, but the KHSAA has made it clear that that is okay as long as there aren't promises or benefits made to the athletes that are not made to other students. Having reviewed the bylaws and with knowledge of the true facts (limited, for full disclosure, to the kids and adult who are the apparent targets of the investigation), I will win the legal argument when I take the position that no violations occurred. Just because an AAU coach has contact with players from other schools does not mean there is "recruiting" going on. That is not me excusing bad behavior by anyone at Holy Cross or any other school; that is the logical and rational interpretation of the KHSAA bylaws.

    As to what the Commissioner may find after a KHSAA investigation, the initial finding could be anything or nothing because the accused has no right or ability to defend itself at this stage. It is not a legal proceeding yet, and the KHSAA investigators in this case have lent an ear, at this point, only to the accusers. Any findings will be subject to challenge and objection within the KHSAA provisions for due process and then in a court of law.

    I hope it does not come to that. I hope that the KHSAA has the good sense to do a complete investigation before making any conclusions or findings, but they are not required to do so. They could speak only to the accusers, all of whom have motivations to see Holy Cross disciplined, or they could do a complete investigation and then reach a conclusion. It would seem to make more sense to do the latter, but I do not sit on the Board or in Commissioner's office. So we shall see.
    Two comments

    First, this isn't only about AAU coaches that coach high school. Much much more than just that one issue that you point out. HC has several AAU connections on their staff. I have no issue with that if they follow the rules of the KHSAA.

    However, if at ANY time that AAU coach promotes the high school program they coach at, then it is a violation. Normal relationships with kids outside their school is perfectly fine. As soon as you start talking about your high school program without them being enrolled at your high school...violation. Every coach knows that or their AD has done a poor job informing them.

    But again, the issue you speak of is just one of many in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVMan23 View Post
    I think I knew your intent, but I wanted to point out that by making ALL transfers sit, that decision would hurt the kids as well (and yes, shaft was the word I used to make that point, not yours). Of all the transfers that take place every year, I would say probably the greatest majority of them are legit. We all know some aren't, and those are the ones that should be dealt with...but making everyone sit is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water is the point I was making.
    No one said ANYTHING about making the legitimate transfers part of the punitive discussion. My exact words were that anyone knowingly breaking the rules for the benefit of their program should not be able to benefit and if enforced, will stop these violations. I'm all for anything that is fair to these young people. Like I said I had hoped you misunderstood my post but I guess you misconstrued to benefit your personal point. Which by the way, no one wants the baby thrown out with the bathwater. But recruiting has to stop, it's fair to no one. And I did not like the manner in which this thread was being discussed. That's all I'm saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    Two comments

    First, this isn't only about AAU coaches that coach high school. Much much more than just that one issue that you point out. HC has several AAU connections on their staff. I have no issue with that if they follow the rules of the KHSAA.

    However, if at ANY time that AAU coach promotes the high school program they coach at, then it is a violation. Normal relationships with kids outside their school is perfectly fine. As soon as you start talking about your high school program without them being enrolled at your high school...violation. Every coach knows that or their AD has done a poor job informing them.

    But again, the issue you speak of is just one of many in this case.
    If it's not on tape how is it proven? Kid says it happened. Coach says it never happened. Now what?

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    Sorry guys & gals for me getting late to the party. Just catching up with this thread topic. A big ole Wow!

    I wonder if a certain local news station is willing to contact Holy Cross and help put this situation out in front of Holy Cross like they offered back when the baseball program at Highlands was dealing with it's Issues last spring? If it is then I'm hoping the Administration at Holy Cross lets the news station know that they indeed have it under control and don't need any further contamination towards the process.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMMY FROM PIQUA View Post
    Sorry guys & gals for me getting late to the party. Just catching up with this thread topic. A big ole Wow!

    I wonder if a certain local news station is willing to contact Holy Cross and help put this situation out in front of Holy Cross like they offered back when the baseball program at Highlands was dealing with it's Issues last spring? If it is then I'm hoping the Administration at Holy Cross lets the news station know that they indeed have it under control and don't need any further contamination towards the process.
    I heard something along the lines of what JFP is preaching above. When I heard the Media called the Fort Thomas Independent School system and offered their "Expertise" services to help the school system defuse the situation, I couldn't believe my ears. Ummm....who was benefiting from that again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    If it's not on tape how is it proven? Kid says it happened. Coach says it never happened. Now what?
    That part is not easily proven. But that's just one small part of what we are talking about. However, if that coach puts it in text or something, then yes. You can prove. Regardless, still a violation. Just hard to prove ...to your point

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    I haven't read this entire thread so if this has been asked....

    Death penalty? What would that look like in high school? Has it ever been levied in KY?
    This was apart of what I asked Guru and for substance. If you are told Death penalty what does that mean? I've never heard of it in KY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportsaholic Mamaw View Post
    No one said ANYTHING about making the legitimate transfers part of the punitive discussion. My exact words were that anyone knowingly breaking the rules for the benefit of their program should not be able to benefit and if enforced, will stop these violations. I'm all for anything that is fair to these young people. Like I said I had hoped you misunderstood my post but I guess you misconstrued to benefit your personal point. Which by the way, no one wants the baby thrown out with the bathwater. But recruiting has to stop, it's fair to no one. And I did not like the manner in which this thread was being discussed. That's all I'm saying.
    Talk about being way off base...not sure what "personal point" you think I was trying to make to my benefit, cause there isn't one

    Quote from your post above that I first commented on..."If you've been on the roster of a school the previous year, that athlete sits for a year. Put some teeth in these rules and this will stop".

    That sure reads like you were saying sit EVERYBODY who transfers. Obviously since you have clarified your stance that's not what you meant, but if you go back and read that post it's what it sounds like you were saying and I think you will easily see the confusion, even though as you point out now it's not what you were implying.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Mitchell View Post
    Too much to address, and I don't believe this is the proper forum anyway. But to be brief, and I will address only the allegations that I have heard second hand have been submitted to the KHSAA pertaining to events over the last 10 months or so, there has been no "cheating". There has been no violation of the bylaws. The bylaws permit contact between coaches and athletes from other schools that is "normal and appropriate". It is permitted for AAU coaches, who are also high school coaches, to coach kids from other schools. That is "normal and appropriate". You need only look around state at the top AAU programs to see the overlap. It is also not forbidden for kids at one school to be friends with kids from another school and, by natural extension, with their parents. None of that is forbidden, or in violation of Bylaw 16 or any other bylaw.

    No one is alleging, as has been suggested here, that "violations are occurring everywhere, so Holy Cross should not be punished when everyone else is doing it." No one. Quite to the contrary, I assume that all of the other high school coaches who also coach AAU or summer teams composed of kids from other schools are compliant, that that is "normal and appropriate contact", but not because I want to believe it, but rather because the KHSAA says it is and permits it. I recognize the danger, that the AAU coach has the opportunity to influence kids, but the KHSAA has made it clear that that is okay as long as there aren't promises or benefits made to the athletes that are not made to other students. Having reviewed the bylaws and with knowledge of the true facts (limited, for full disclosure, to the kids and adult who are the apparent targets of the investigation), I will win the legal argument when I take the position that no violations occurred. Just because an AAU coach has contact with players from other schools does not mean there is "recruiting" going on. That is not me excusing bad behavior by anyone at Holy Cross or any other school; that is the logical and rational interpretation of the KHSAA bylaws.

    As to what the Commissioner may find after a KHSAA investigation, the initial finding could be anything or nothing because the accused has no right or ability to defend itself at this stage. It is not a legal proceeding yet, and the KHSAA investigators in this case have lent an ear, at this point, only to the accusers. Any findings will be subject to challenge and objection within the KHSAA provisions for due process and then in a court of law.

    I hope it does not come to that. I hope that the KHSAA has the good sense to do a complete investigation before making any conclusions or findings, but they are not required to do so. They could speak only to the accusers, all of whom have motivations to see Holy Cross disciplined, or they could do a complete investigation and then reach a conclusion. It would seem to make more sense to do the latter, but I do not sit on the Board or in Commissioner's office. So we shall see.
    You just did a mic drop on months of RC99 whining. Maybe the greatest post I've read in months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LIPTON BASH View Post
    This was apart of what I asked Guru and for substance. If you are told Death penalty what does that mean? I've never heard of it in KY.
    Does "Death Penalty" mean Death Penalty or could it mean really serious penalty vs. most lame, inconsequential penalties the KHSAA hands out?

  13. #88
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    I think everyone knows at this point by the number of posters from the school speaking out now which school these complaints came from. It only took a couple texts to some friends to figure it out on my own. This is comedy hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LIPTON BASH View Post
    You just did a mic drop on months of RC99 whining. Maybe the greatest post I've read in months.
    Guess we'll see who has the last "mic drop". Again, the offer is still out there to meet and discuss!

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    Does "Death Penalty" mean Death Penalty or could it mean really serious penalty vs. most lame, inconsequential penalties the KHSAA hands out?
    You used the term Death penalty. So I would think you would define it. I've never heard it used in the context of Kentucky High School sports.

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