Is the KHSAA ready to impose the "Death Penalty" on Covington Holy Cross?

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountain ref View Post
    I thought any school with a religious name or symbol was allowed to recruit.
    Negative. It's just easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawildcat View Post
    Negative. It's just easier.
    How about a mascot that is blue and flies.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountain ref View Post
    I thought any school with a religious name or symbol was allowed to recruit.
    Haven't you ever heard all the stories about how the KHSAA gets upset about Trinity and St. X running afoul of the recruiting rules that they go ahead and put Louisville Holy Cross on probation as punishment?

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    This thread is hypocritical and oozing with the glee apparently some of you are enjoying by discussing a high school full of young people who will be the REAL ones to foot this bill when it is apparently coming due. KHSAA is a joke about like the NCAA or USOC, they spout all these rules and with the openly done recruiting that's gone on this year , give me a break. This whole situation is out of control. You, a coach, contact another school's player of record you need to be the one paying the penalty not these athletes. If you've been on the roster of a school the previous year, that athlete sits for a year. Put some teeth in these rules and this will stop. Sorry, but this smacks of way too much gossip. Like my Mom said, If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything especially when young people are involved. Yes, we will all hear whatever this big news item is. But there are a lot of you in high positions that need to sweep your own doorstep first. There are a lot of glass houses out there. And NO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT. I just don't care for the manner in which this is being discussed. And Guru, after that page I signed to become a member, what gives with this thread?

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportsaholic Mamaw View Post
    This thread is hypocritical and oozing with the glee apparently some of you are enjoying by discussing a high school full of young people who will be the REAL ones to foot this bill when it is apparently coming due. KHSAA is a joke about like the NCAA or USOC, they spout all these rules and with the openly done recruiting that's gone on this year , give me a break. This whole situation is out of control. You, a coach, contact another school's player of record you need to be the one paying the penalty not these athletes. If you've been on the roster of a school the previous year, that athlete sits for a year. Put some teeth in these rules and this will stop. Sorry, but this smacks of way too much gossip. Like my Mom said, If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything especially when young people are involved. Yes, we will all hear whatever this big news item is. But there are a lot of you in high positions that need to sweep your own doorstep first. There are a lot of glass houses out there. And NO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT. I just don't care for the manner in which this is being discussed. And Guru, after that page I signed to become a member, what gives with this thread?
    That's kind of contradictory there Mamaw. In the first bolded you talk about the poor kids getting the shaft and paying for te mistakes of a coach. Then in the 2nd bolded you say ALL kids should sit a year after transferring if they played a sport at their pervious school. Talk about getting the shaft. So Johnny and family move from Paducah to Lexington because his dad gets a new job, and he has to sit a year. No THAT is getting the shaft.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportsaholic Mamaw View Post
    This thread is hypocritical and oozing with the glee apparently some of you are enjoying by discussing a high school full of young people who will be the REAL ones to foot this bill when it is apparently coming due. KHSAA is a joke about like the NCAA or USOC, they spout all these rules and with the openly done recruiting that's gone on this year , give me a break. This whole situation is out of control. You, a coach, contact another school's player of record you need to be the one paying the penalty not these athletes. If you've been on the roster of a school the previous year, that athlete sits for a year. Put some teeth in these rules and this will stop. Sorry, but this smacks of way too much gossip. Like my Mom said, If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything especially when young people are involved. Yes, we will all hear whatever this big news item is. But there are a lot of you in high positions that need to sweep your own doorstep first. There are a lot of glass houses out there. And NO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT. I just don't care for the manner in which this is being discussed. And Guru, after that page I signed to become a member, what gives with this thread?
    This is a good post! There is a lot said here, so I'll break it down as I respond.

    As I said in another post, I don't think anyone is taking joy in any of this. I think you see some arrogance come out when the posters that are discussing get attacked by others. You're right, that needs toned down.

    You are also right in saying it's about the kids. But it's about ALL the kids. Unfortunately, when adults make bad decisions, kids can be affected. And when adults place all the priority on winning at all costs, it typically convolutes their decision process and you have what you are seeing now. In this case, it may be the HC kids that bear the repercussions. But if nothing is done, then all the other kids they play in the future bear the repercussions. Either way, the root cause is bad decisions by adults.

    I wouldn't call the KHSAA a joke. I think this is a rampant problem they are trying to get their hands around. They always have to consider whats best for the kids. But until they stop handing out slaps on the wrist, it's not going to stop. I was talking to someone the other day and they said "Heck, why not cheat? If that's all you're going to get, it's worth the chance!" Of course I don't agree with that, but that is a statement that can be seen throughout the state. The current penalties are not enough of a deterrent to make sure you follow the rules to a tee.

    As far as the gossip, nothing I post I would classify as "gossip". It all has substance. I don't always reveal how or why, but you can trust it's not just "gossip".

    And remember, when we are having these discussions, I am talking about the adults involved. This has nothing to do with the kids...IMO.

    This is a place to discuss this stuff. This is a hot topic in NKY right now. You hear only a few talking about it on here, but there are MANY that are aware of what's going on and have interest in it.

    I have to say this too. The thing that is also missed here is the stress this is putting on the HC family. I know a lot of good people that are considered HC families. They grew up in the church and school and have kids and ties to them. The HC people I know are a very close knit group that sticks together. HC has a great tradition that all those families should be proud of. I have said many times that I'm amazed as to how some of these smaller schools do it. I really feel bad for these long term families that are going through this. They have a lot of pride in their school and they should. But this is threatening to tarnish their school and it's a shame. And I truly feel bad for those families. But I heard a quote from a HC person that said ...it's unfortunate "But cheating is cheating!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVMan23 View Post
    That's kind of contradictory there Mamaw. In the first bolded you talk about the poor kids getting the shaft and paying for te mistakes of a coach. Then in the 2nd bolded you say ALL kids should sit a year after transferring if they played a sport at their pervious school. Talk about getting the shaft. So Johnny and family move from Paducah to Lexington because his dad gets a new job, and he has to sit a year. No THAT is getting the shaft.
    You also missed my point, I said sit them for a year and the powers that be who are breaking the rules will not do it, if they know they can't use that child for their own glory , they won't be going after them. No EVERYONE knows I'm speaking about the athlete who just changes schools because they were recruited. Any child whose parents buy a home in that district, or through a divorce the child has to move with one parent, or parents cannot afford tuition any longer at a private school or not be able to pay because they has been attending a public school out of their district. And sometimes parents choose to send and pay for their child to attend a school that is more academically appropriate for the career that child is going into. I hope your statements reflect that you misunderstood my post, because I only have the best interests of these young people in my heart, and not that I want to give anyone's child the SHAFT. A word not in any post I've ever written. I was a unpaid volunteer for the 14 years my children attended a public school, and all the sports, band, 4-H and whatever activity involved, my husband and I in all those years and some since not one time did we ever demean anyone's child or opposing players. So NO I want this recruiting joke of a rulebook to have some teeth in it for the coaches, ADs, and school administrations who are breaking it to be paying the bill not these young people. In my very own District there are kids who have changed schools for 2015-2016 and no one has moved or even bought property in this district, the young person drives themselves to this school and the KHSAA is aware of it, may be a little break but it's still breaking the rules and they have done not one thing. This is what I'm talking about. No child should be penalized for this unless the parents are knowingly involved. And if they are shame on them because they are setting an example that cheating the system pays. And what kind of parent breaks the rules
    knowing their own child gets punished for what they did. All I want is what is best for all these young people. I sincerely hope you misunderstood and did not misconstrue my words.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    This is a good post! There is a lot said here, so I'll break it down as I respond.

    As I said in another post, I don't think anyone is taking joy in any of this. I think you see some arrogance come out when the posters that are discussing get attacked by others. You're right, that needs toned down.

    You are also right in saying it's about the kids. But it's about ALL the kids. Unfortunately, when adults make bad decisions, kids can be affected. And when adults place all the priority on winning at all costs, it typically convolutes their decision process and you have what you are seeing now. In this case, it may be the HC kids that bear the repercussions. But if nothing is done, then all the other kids they play in the future bear the repercussions. Either way, the root cause is bad decisions by adults.

    I wouldn't call the KHSAA a joke. I think this is a rampant problem they are trying to get their hands around. They always have to consider whats best for the kids. But until they stop handing out slaps on the wrist, it's not going to stop. I was talking to someone the other day and they said "Heck, why not cheat? If that's all you're going to get, it's worth the chance!" Of course I don't agree with that, but that is a statement that can be seen throughout the state. The current penalties are not enough of a deterrent to make sure you follow the rules to a tee.

    As far as the gossip, nothing I post I would classify as "gossip". It all has substance. I don't always reveal how or why, but you can trust it's not just "gossip".

    And remember, when we are having these discussions, I am talking about the adults involved. This has nothing to do with the kids...IMO.

    This is a place to discuss this stuff. This is a hot topic in NKY right now. You hear only a few talking about it on here, but there are MANY that are aware of what's going on and have interest in it.

    I have to say this too. The thing that is also missed here is the stress this is putting on the HC family. I know a lot of good people that are considered HC families. They grew up in the church and school and have kids and ties to them. The HC people I know are a very close knit group that sticks together. HC has a great tradition that all those families should be proud of. I have said many times that I'm amazed as to how some of these smaller schools do it. I really feel bad for these long term families that are going through this. They have a lot of pride in their school and they should. But this is threatening to tarnish their school and it's a shame. And I truly feel bad for those families. But I heard a quote from a HC person that said ...it's unfortunate "But cheating is cheating!"
    You are also right, maybe KHSAA is not a joke however they do interpret the rules differently depending on the school or individuals involved. I myself attend a small town parish with a school grades pre-k through 8th grade. My husband, family and I have worked and volunteered to make it possible to keep this school open, I of all people know how much work is involved. And we could not afford at that time to send our children to anywhere except public school. So I do understand that the parish is like one big hard working family. My main point was I did not like the way this topic was presented. I am all for a fair level playing field and if one adult involved cheats, they cheat everyone involved including themselves. My Mom also said " Cheaters never prosper." Yes, I know I'm not perfect but I'm trying and another thing I'm working really hard on from Mom, " Win with dignity and lose with grace." And that is a tough one I'm trying to achieve for the new year. ALL I want is what is fair and best for these hard working young people. Same rules and penalties for EVERY ADULT whose involved in these situations.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    This is a good post! There is a lot said here, so I'll break it down as I respond.

    As I said in another post, I don't think anyone is taking joy in any of this. I think you see some arrogance come out when the posters that are discussing get attacked by others. You're right, that needs toned down.

    You are also right in saying it's about the kids. But it's about ALL the kids. Unfortunately, when adults make bad decisions, kids can be affected. And when adults place all the priority on winning at all costs, it typically convolutes their decision process and you have what you are seeing now. In this case, it may be the HC kids that bear the repercussions. But if nothing is done, then all the other kids they play in the future bear the repercussions. Either way, the root cause is bad decisions by adults.

    I wouldn't call the KHSAA a joke. I think this is a rampant problem they are trying to get their hands around. They always have to consider whats best for the kids. But until they stop handing out slaps on the wrist, it's not going to stop. I was talking to someone the other day and they said "Heck, why not cheat? If that's all you're going to get, it's worth the chance!" Of course I don't agree with that, but that is a statement that can be seen throughout the state. The current penalties are not enough of a deterrent to make sure you follow the rules to a tee.

    As far as the gossip, nothing I post I would classify as "gossip". It all has substance. I don't always reveal how or why, but you can trust it's not just "gossip".

    And remember, when we are having these discussions, I am talking about the adults involved. This has nothing to do with the kids...IMO.

    This is a place to discuss this stuff. This is a hot topic in NKY right now. You hear only a few talking about it on here, but there are MANY that are aware of what's going on and have interest in it.

    I have to say this too. The thing that is also missed here is the stress this is putting on the HC family. I know a lot of good people that are considered HC families. They grew up in the church and school and have kids and ties to them. The HC people I know are a very close knit group that sticks together. HC has a great tradition that all those families should be proud of. I have said many times that I'm amazed as to how some of these smaller schools do it. I really feel bad for these long term families that are going through this. They have a lot of pride in their school and they should. But this is threatening to tarnish their school and it's a shame. And I truly feel bad for those families. But I heard a quote from a HC person that said ...it's unfortunate "But cheating is cheating!"
    I will disagree with the bolded above. When I see 2 coaches and a parent from other schools smile over xmas break at a game and give high 5s about "we have them, they are going down" that is taking joy. I stood 2 feet away and listened to the conversations.

  11. #71
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    I have no sources and don't know any factual substance about this situation at Holy Cross. However, I will make a somewhat educated guess and ask whether the biggest allegations revolve around how students pay tuition at Holy Cross, and who gets tuition breaks/scholarships. Can anyone verify whether that is part of the investigation?

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    I haven't read this entire thread so if this has been asked....

    Death penalty? What would that look like in high school? Has it ever been levied in KY?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportsaholic Mamaw View Post
    You also missed my point, I said sit them for a year and the powers that be who are breaking the rules will not do it, if they know they can't use that child for their own glory , they won't be going after them. No EVERYONE knows I'm speaking about the athlete who just changes schools because they were recruited. Any child whose parents buy a home in that district, or through a divorce the child has to move with one parent, or parents cannot afford tuition any longer at a private school or not be able to pay because they has been attending a public school out of their district. And sometimes parents choose to send and pay for their child to attend a school that is more academically appropriate for the career that child is going into. I hope your statements reflect that you misunderstood my post, because I only have the best interests of these young people in my heart, and not that I want to give anyone's child the SHAFT. A word not in any post I've ever written. I was a unpaid volunteer for the 14 years my children attended a public school, and all the sports, band, 4-H and whatever activity involved, my husband and I in all those years and some since not one time did we ever demean anyone's child or opposing players. So NO I want this recruiting joke of a rulebook to have some teeth in it for the coaches, ADs, and school administrations who are breaking it to be paying the bill not these young people. In my very own District there are kids who have changed schools for 2015-2016 and no one has moved or even bought property in this district, the young person drives themselves to this school and the KHSAA is aware of it, may be a little break but it's still breaking the rules and they have done not one thing. This is what I'm talking about. No child should be penalized for this unless the parents are knowingly involved. And if they are shame on them because they are setting an example that cheating the system pays. And what kind of parent breaks the rules
    knowing their own child gets punished for what they did. All I want is what is best for all these young people. I sincerely hope you misunderstood and did not misconstrue my words.
    I think I knew your intent, but I wanted to point out that by making ALL transfers sit, that decision would hurt the kids as well (and yes, shaft was the word I used to make that point, not yours). Of all the transfers that take place every year, I would say probably the greatest majority of them are legit. We all know some aren't, and those are the ones that should be dealt with...but making everyone sit is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water is the point I was making.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuces22 View Post
    I will disagree with the bolded above. When I see 2 coaches and a parent from other schools smile over xmas break at a game and give high 5s about "we have them, they are going down" that is taking joy. I stood 2 feet away and listened to the conversations.
    I can't speak for those coaches of course, but I can tell you there are AD's and coaches that are very frustrated and even infuriated with what's been going on. This is much bigger than some want to admit in the coaching community. They stay quiet (mostly) on the outside, but it's been churning for a long time behind closed doors for those coaches and AD's. They have been "fighting" against it for awhile and are now being heard. I can see where it might be a relief to know something is actually happening now. Maybe a public display is not the best way to express it, but to be honest, if you don't break rules, you don't have to witness that. Again, HC is not the victim. They chose to take the chances. If you ask those same coaches that were celebrating if they feel sorry for the kids or even the families at the school, I bet they would say absolutely "yes". They are not celebrating that "HC is going down!" They are celebrating that the breaking of the rules (by adults) is going to be addressed...finally!

    Again, I don't agree with the public display of joy, but I can understand where is comes from.

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    Too much to address, and I don't believe this is the proper forum anyway. But to be brief, and I will address only the allegations that I have heard second hand have been submitted to the KHSAA pertaining to events over the last 10 months or so, there has been no "cheating". There has been no violation of the bylaws. The bylaws permit contact between coaches and athletes from other schools that is "normal and appropriate". It is permitted for AAU coaches, who are also high school coaches, to coach kids from other schools. That is "normal and appropriate". You need only look around state at the top AAU programs to see the overlap. It is also not forbidden for kids at one school to be friends with kids from another school and, by natural extension, with their parents. None of that is forbidden, or in violation of Bylaw 16 or any other bylaw.

    No one is alleging, as has been suggested here, that "violations are occurring everywhere, so Holy Cross should not be punished when everyone else is doing it." No one. Quite to the contrary, I assume that all of the other high school coaches who also coach AAU or summer teams composed of kids from other schools are compliant, that that is "normal and appropriate contact", but not because I want to believe it, but rather because the KHSAA says it is and permits it. I recognize the danger, that the AAU coach has the opportunity to influence kids, but the KHSAA has made it clear that that is okay as long as there aren't promises or benefits made to the athletes that are not made to other students. Having reviewed the bylaws and with knowledge of the true facts (limited, for full disclosure, to the kids and adult who are the apparent targets of the investigation), I will win the legal argument when I take the position that no violations occurred. Just because an AAU coach has contact with players from other schools does not mean there is "recruiting" going on. That is not me excusing bad behavior by anyone at Holy Cross or any other school; that is the logical and rational interpretation of the KHSAA bylaws.

    As to what the Commissioner may find after a KHSAA investigation, the initial finding could be anything or nothing because the accused has no right or ability to defend itself at this stage. It is not a legal proceeding yet, and the KHSAA investigators in this case have lent an ear, at this point, only to the accusers. Any findings will be subject to challenge and objection within the KHSAA provisions for due process and then in a court of law.

    I hope it does not come to that. I hope that the KHSAA has the good sense to do a complete investigation before making any conclusions or findings, but they are not required to do so. They could speak only to the accusers, all of whom have motivations to see Holy Cross disciplined, or they could do a complete investigation and then reach a conclusion. It would seem to make more sense to do the latter, but I do not sit on the Board or in Commissioner's office. So we shall see.

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