Is the KHSAA ready to impose the "Death Penalty" on Covington Holy Cross?

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  1. #556
    NamecipS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #99 View Post
    I have tried to get those who claim to know it all to just say it. If it is true what do they have to lose? I'm not saying they are the ones making the accusations, just saying they know what those accusations are and who it concerns! But whatever I got tired of calling them out with no response.
    If you've read the entire thread, which I bet you have, you should certainly be able to make an educated guess on the allegations being investigated.

    You missed out on the PM deal or you could have gotten some additional info.

    It should be very interesting to see how things shake out when this is over. I want to know what local news organizations will do/say when covering this story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Promoted to "what" 9th grade ? Where is student enrolled ?
    On a final 8th grade report card, it doesn't say where (why would it?).. it just says promoted to 9th grade. And you aren't really enrolled in HS until you show up for day 1 at said HS. You can do all the paperwork, but still change your mind until school starts (assuming the new school will take you). So, there's kind of a loophole there. You aren't anyone's property the summer before your Frosh year.

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    Wonder when the findings will come out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dallaslaredo View Post
    On a final 8th grade report card, it doesn't say where (why would it?).. it just says promoted to 9th grade. And you aren't really enrolled in HS until you show up for day 1 at said HS. You can do all the paperwork, but still change your mind until school starts (assuming the new school will take you). So, there's kind of a loophole there. You aren't anyone's property the summer before your Frosh year.
    Couldn't you say that at any grade? And I would agree with you in an open enrollment situation. If the NKY catholic schools are considered "open enrollment" by the KHSAA and not attached to feeders, then I don't think there is any issue with it. Its kinda like Kenton County where kids can go to whatever Kenton Co district high school they want. Although I'm not sure how the KHSAA rules on Scott, Dixie and SK regarding where kids can go and what kind of contact they can have.

  5. #560
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    @Qryche11

    Just a casual reader with nothing to contribute here but I would say Post 75 and 338 are going to contain the most specifics.

    Post 75
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Mitchell View Post
    Too much to address, and I don't believe this is the proper forum anyway. But to be brief, and I will address only the allegations that I have heard second hand have been submitted to the KHSAA pertaining to events over the last 10 months or so, there has been no "cheating". There has been no violation of the bylaws. The bylaws permit contact between coaches and athletes from other schools that is "normal and appropriate". It is permitted for AAU coaches, who are also high school coaches, to coach kids from other schools. That is "normal and appropriate". You need only look around state at the top AAU programs to see the overlap. It is also not forbidden for kids at one school to be friends with kids from another school and, by natural extension, with their parents. None of that is forbidden, or in violation of Bylaw 16 or any other bylaw.

    No one is alleging, as has been suggested here, that "violations are occurring everywhere, so Holy Cross should not be punished when everyone else is doing it." No one. Quite to the contrary, I assume that all of the other high school coaches who also coach AAU or summer teams composed of kids from other schools are compliant, that that is "normal and appropriate contact", but not because I want to believe it, but rather because the KHSAA says it is and permits it. I recognize the danger, that the AAU coach has the opportunity to influence kids, but the KHSAA has made it clear that that is okay as long as there aren't promises or benefits made to the athletes that are not made to other students. Having reviewed the bylaws and with knowledge of the true facts (limited, for full disclosure, to the kids and adult who are the apparent targets of the investigation), I will win the legal argument when I take the position that no violations occurred. Just because an AAU coach has contact with players from other schools does not mean there is "recruiting" going on. That is not me excusing bad behavior by anyone at Holy Cross or any other school; that is the logical and rational interpretation of the KHSAA bylaws.

    As to what the Commissioner may find after a KHSAA investigation, the initial finding could be anything or nothing because the accused has no right or ability to defend itself at this stage. It is not a legal proceeding yet, and the KHSAA investigators in this case have lent an ear, at this point, only to the accusers. Any findings will be subject to challenge and objection within the KHSAA provisions for due process and then in a court of law.

    I hope it does not come to that. I hope that the KHSAA has the good sense to do a complete investigation before making any conclusions or findings, but they are not required to do so. They could speak only to the accusers, all of whom have motivations to see Holy Cross disciplined, or they could do a complete investigation and then reach a conclusion. It would seem to make more sense to do the latter, but I do not sit on the Board or in Commissioner's office. So we shall see.

    and post 338

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer.Pride View Post
    It is difficult to have open discussion with this thread title without getting into rule 4 violation territory, but I'll try. My understanding is that HC had one or more of their program coaching staff also coaching AAU. The High School staff then invited kids from the AAU program to open gyms and camps at HC. Absolutely nothing wrong so far. Infact, IMO, if you are committed to developing a winning program, this is a good business practice. Catholic schools have to market themselves in order to survive and this is again, IMO, an extension of a Catholic Schools attempt to market themselves. Again, no issue here.

    Now to the controversial part.

    Keep in mind this has not been substantiated, but is merely my understanding of what happened and there are those on here that can correct me if there are errors in my understanding. It has been asserted that there are student athletes getting financial aide that is not generally available to the student population at large. That is the issue that has raised the ire of some.

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    I have a question. This thread and RCC9 made me think about the KHSAA rules. I think it was RCC9 that made the comment that people probably aren't upset because we don't understand the rules. So I looked them up on the KHSAA website.

    My question is.... many schools, including Holy Cross, offer kids sports camps (football, basketball, volley ball) during the summer for children in grades 3-8. These camps are marketed to the general community. Often this is a great way for the players to take a leadership role in his/her sport by instructing a younger child. These camps also give the program some visability in the community. Anyone can come to these camps and specifically in the Holy Cross neighborhood it may mean that kids attend from the neighborhood that do not belong to a feeder catholic school. Is that a KHSAA violation? It looks like it can be when you read the rules.

    If it is a violation, part 2 question, how can a school "own" a kid? I think I saw that question in a prior post as well. It seems silly to me and difficult to enforce.

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallaslaredo View Post
    On a final 8th grade report card, it doesn't say where (why would it?).. it just says promoted to 9th grade. And you aren't really enrolled in HS until you show up for day 1 at said HS. You can do all the paperwork, but still change your mind until school starts (assuming the new school will take you). So, there's kind of a loophole there. You aren't anyone's property the summer before your Frosh year.
    All true, but the school still has an obligation to walk very carefully around when you end your 8th grade year and begin your 9th grade year. Enrollment in the school becomes a factor in the process, but not the all defining reason a student athlete can work out in that summer in between. A fine line....

    I would submit there are probably very few incoming freshman that enroll and then dis-enroll prior to school starting, in particular if the biggest participation sport is football....you lose a season that way typically.

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    Maybe this clears up if a kid is "owned" or not. They may be free to go wherever they want, but it doesn't change the fact that a high school coach cannot have contact until they are enrolled. The definition of "enrolled" is below.

    Case BL-16-4– When is a student enrolled at a KHSAA
    member school for the purposes of Bylaw 16?


    A student is enrolled at a KHSAA member school when that
    student sits for class in the new school.
    In addition, a student may be considered enrolled at a KHSAA
    member school when the student registers at the new school,
    is on the student enrollment listing of a member school, and
    not on the listing of another school.
    In the case of enrollment during periods when classes are not
    being held (i.e. summer), the student may be considered to be
    enrolled at the new school when formal application has been
    made and accepted as verified by the new Principal and the
    student is officially withdrawn and off the enrollment listing of
    the former school.

    And here's the "feeder school" stuff...

    Case BL-16-3- What is a feeder school as used when
    reviewing permissible contact?

    For a school to be considered a “feeder” school, it must be under
    the same local board of education as the member school,
    and enroll students below grade nine. A student enrolled at
    a nonfeeder school shall not be enrolled at a feeder school
    irrespective of past enrollment patterns of that nonfeeder
    school. Applying to a school does not waive this definition
    as there is a clear line between applying and actually being
    enrolled. School and school districts may choose to define a
    more restrictive feeder pattern for its middle schools to high
    schools which if violated, constitute the student not being
    “connected”.

  9. #564

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justamom2 View Post
    I have a question. This thread and RCC9 made me think about the KHSAA rules. I think it was RCC9 that made the comment that people probably aren't upset because we don't understand the rules. So I looked them up on the KHSAA website.

    My question is.... many schools, including Holy Cross, offer kids sports camps (football, basketball, volley ball) during the summer for children in grades 3-8. These camps are marketed to the general community. Often this is a great way for the players to take a leadership role in his/her sport by instructing a younger child. These camps also give the program some visability in the community. Anyone can come to these camps and specifically in the Holy Cross neighborhood it may mean that kids attend from the neighborhood that do not belong to a feeder catholic school. Is that a KHSAA violation? It looks like it can be when you read the rules.

    If it is a violation, part 2 question, how can a school "own" a kid? I think I saw that question in a prior post as well. It seems silly to me and difficult to enforce.
    I can't find anything right now (not a lot of time) on the camps, but I know there is an exception when its an instructional camp and families are paying to attend. However, if you coach, you still cannot talk to those kids about coming to that school or influence them in any way. It's just like coaching aau and having kids from other schools. You can coach, but you CANNOT influence them to come to school where you coach.

  10. #565

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    Quote Originally Posted by NamecipS View Post
    If you've read the entire thread, which I bet you have, you should certainly be able to make an educated guess on the allegations being investigated.

    You missed out on the PM deal or you could have gotten some additional info.

    It should be very interesting to see how things shake out when this is over. I want to know what local news organizations will do/say when covering this story.
    I gathered what was being said without being said. I was calling them out because I believe if your gonna say things like this to the public them you better be able to back it up. And like I said, quit sidestepping and just say it .

  11. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by #99 View Post
    I gathered what was being said without being said. I was calling them out because I believe if your gonna say things like this to the public them you better be able to back it up. And like I said, quit sidestepping and just say it .
    I think the larger issue is secrecy within government at all levels.

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