Heroin Overdose First Responders Struggling To Maintain Compassion

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  1. #181
    plantmanky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    So socialize EpiPens? I just want to make sure we are clear on this.
    Why not, its done for illegals, and people who do illegal things, and people who take illegal things.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    McCracken is the only county in WKY showing up. We've only recently started seeing heroin down here (last 6-12 months). I knew it'd show up eventually but we're seeing it more and more recently. Meth had been the drug of choice and fairly common for as long as I can recall.
    I was back home, Whitley County, for a funeral last weekend. We were in the vehicle procession to the grave site when we passed by a fellow that looked like he was lounging alongside the road above the ditch. It looked like he was texting, to me. Somebody else in the procession evidently called the sheriff. It turned out he was shooting up.

    Later, I found out there'd been a shooting up Barton Hollow not far from there, up off KY 26, near Rockholds. The indications were that the incident was drug related.

    I occasionally romanticize about home, but it's not the place I was raised anymore.

  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by plantmanky View Post
    Why not, its done for illegals, and people who do illegal things, and people who take illegal things.
    So by a simple extension of that logic, why not just socialize all of health care? That way everyone gets it all.

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt278 View Post
    I would rather see the government spend it on epi pens than and give it to those with severe allergies than narcan on addicts who have chosen their path.

    Don't try to pigeon hole me or put words in my mouth, please.
    So you are saying it is okay to value one life in peril over another?

    Wouldn't persobal responsibility dictate that those with severe allergies should be more careful and if they happen to have a reaction then they put themselves in that position? Or do we give them a pass because they aren't "undesirables"

    For what it's worth I have no position one way or the other. I am juat wanting clarity on the details of when it is okay for the government to take over and when it isn't.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell View Post
    Eppins were affordable a few years ago. The exclusivity granted to the company that owns the rights to them as well as the snails pace of the FDA on approving a generic alternative is why they are so expensive. Government interference is why they are so expensive so you're right, I'm not a fan of their influence on the price.
    I work in the pharmaceutical industry, I know this better than most. EpiPen's spike in price is ridiculous considering the fact that it has been around for a long time. Part of the problem is that no one seems to want to use Adrenaclick instead (which has a generic). If they would switch over then Mylan would have no choice but to drop the price.

    I do agree that government interference had an impact on thw current situation. The law allowing schools to stock up unassigned EpiPens signed by Obama definitely pushed things in thia direction. That allowed Mylan to jack up the price even more once Uncle Sam started buying in bulk.

    I just want to make sure people are consistent. I have no dog in this fight. I frankly find that KY law requiring KASPER usage by MDs had a bigger impact on heroin use than availabilty of Narcan.

  6. #186
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    @PepRock01, I understand and respect the argument about wanting consistency.

    The thing I struggle with, it's not illegal to be deathly allergic to something. It's illegal to use heroin. And yet Narcan is free but Epipens are ridiculously expensive, so I'm told. Thankfully have no experience with either.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJAlltheWay24 View Post
    @PepRock1, I understand and respect the argument about what consistency. The thing I struggle with, it's not illegal to be deathly allergic to something. It's illegal to use heroin.
    I do think that they need to be punished for sure and I don't disagree with the thought of forced rehab for repeat offenders. Problem is that medical professionals cannot judge, if we did there are a lot of things I wouldn't fill in the pharmacy.

    Why would I fill Valtrex when it is obviously your fault for having unprotected sex?

    Oh you're clearly a smoker, so I am not going to fill your albuterol because you deserve what you get for thinking that inhaling smoke was a good idea.

    Coal miner with black lung? Sorry dude, its been obvious that coal mining was dangerous for decades, you should have known better and relocated.

    I am definitely not filling your simvastatin as you are sitting there eating KFC. If you cared about your cholesterol then you wouldn't be eating fried food.

    I get that it is a hard sell, but many conditions are self inflicted. We can't pick and chose who we help. If we have issues with what happens to repeat offenders with regards to illegal drugs then we ought to do something about the laws and enforcement of being under the influence of narcotics.

    "Just let them die" was how Citizen Mao fixed the drug problem in the PRC. Although "let them die" was assisted by a gun to the back of the head and further of addicts' families.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    I do think that they need to be punished for sure and I don't disagree with the thought of forced rehab for repeat offenders. Problem is that medical professionals cannot judge, if we did there are a lot of things I wouldn't fill in the pharmacy.

    Why would I fill Valtrex when it is obviously your fault for having unprotected sex?

    Oh you're clearly a smoker, so I am not going to fill your albuterol because you deserve what you get for thinking that inhaling smoke was a good idea.

    Coal miner with black lung? Sorry dude, its been obvious that coal mining was dangerous for decades, you should have known better and relocated.

    I am definitely not filling your simvastatin as you are sitting there eating KFC. If you cared about your cholesterol then you wouldn't be eating fried food.

    I get that it is a hard sell, but many conditions are self inflicted. We can't pick and chose who we help. If we have issues with what happens to repeat offenders with regards to illegal drugs then we ought to do something about the laws and enforcement of being under the influence of narcotics.

    "Just let them die" was how Citizen Mao fixed the drug problem in the PRC. Although "let them die" was assisted by a gun to the back of the head and further of addicts' families.
    I'm no where near knowledgeable on the topic, but are all the drugs that you named free of charge?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    I do think that they need to be punished for sure and I don't disagree with the thought of forced rehab for repeat offenders. Problem is that medical professionals cannot judge, if we did there are a lot of things I wouldn't fill in the pharmacy.

    Why would I fill Valtrex when it is obviously your fault for having unprotected sex?

    Oh you're clearly a smoker, so I am not going to fill your albuterol because you deserve what you get for thinking that inhaling smoke was a good idea.

    Coal miner with black lung? Sorry dude, its been obvious that coal mining was dangerous for decades, you should have known better and relocated.

    I am definitely not filling your simvastatin as you are sitting there eating KFC. If you cared about your cholesterol then you wouldn't be eating fried food.

    I get that it is a hard sell, but many conditions are self inflicted. We can't pick and chose who we help. If we have issues with what happens to repeat offenders with regards to illegal drugs then we ought to do something about the laws and enforcement of being under the influence of narcotics.

    "Just let them die" was how Citizen Mao fixed the drug problem in the PRC. Although "let them die" was assisted by a gun to the back of the head and further of addicts' families.
    Apples to oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJAlltheWay24 View Post
    I'm no where near knowledgeable on the topic, but are all the drugs that you named free of charge?
    Depends on insurance, some yes some no.

    I get that the whole saving them free of charge thing is irritating. I honestly don't like the idea of rewarding that behavior either, but medical responders and professionals shouldn't be in the position of deciding who lives and who dies.

    Although I understand the idea of letting people dumb enough to make a stupid decision die, evolution in action after all. But if that is the case then we need to focus on all stupid not just heroin. Motorcycle accidents with no helmet, accidentally self inflicted gunshot wounds (no responsible gun owner should not know if it is or isn't loaded),four wheeler accidents without helmet, people injured while crossing against a light, underage binge drinking, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawildcat View Post
    Apples to oranges.
    Did all of those people not make a conscious decision that would harm their health?

    What about teenage binge drinkers? Let those morons die, they clearly deserve it for doing something illegal and they don't deserve our compassion.

    Anyone riding a motorcycle without a helmet? A number of states have helmet laws, if they were in violation of the law let them die.

    Illegal is illegal, right?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    Depends on insurance, some yes some no.

    I get that the whole saving them free of charge thing is irritating. I honestly don't like the idea of rewarding that behavior either, but medical responders and professionals shouldn't be in the position of deciding who lives and who dies.

    Although I understand the idea of letting people dumb enough to make a stupid decision die, evolution in action after all. But if that is the case then we need to focus on all stupid not just heroin. Motorcycle accidents with no helmet, accidentally self inflicted gunshot wounds (no responsible gun owner should not know if it is or isn't loaded),four wheeler accidents without helmet, people injured while crossing against a light, underage binge drinking, etc.
    I'm not promoting the idea of just letting them die.

    However I think they should get hit with a bill for the first responder's use of Narcan. Seems like a lot of times the cost of care for different things is quite high, not sure why administering Narcan doesn't come with a similar result.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    Did all of those people not make a conscious decision that would harm their health?

    What about teenage binge drinkers? Let those morons die, they clearly deserve it for doing something illegal and they don't deserve our compassion.

    Anyone riding a motorcycle without a helmet? A number of states have helmet laws, if they were in violation of the law let them die.

    Illegal is illegal, right?
    The issue is whose job it is to respond and treat these overdoses. You've listed tasks that a pharmacist would perform in their job. Would I like a police officer to show up before the pharmacist and distribute drugs until the pharmacist gets there? Hardly. Just like I don't want an EMT showing up when I call the police for an intruder. We are putting a huge burden on law enforcement.

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJAlltheWay24 View Post
    I'm not promoting the idea of just letting them die.

    However I think they should get hit with a bill for the first responder's use of Narcan. Seems like a lot of times the cost of care for different things is quite high, not sure why administering Narcan doesn't come with a similar result.
    That wouldn't really bother me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawildcat View Post
    The issue is whose job it is to respond and treat these overdoses. You've listed tasks that a pharmacist would perform in their job. Would I like a police officer to show up before the pharmacist and distribute drugs until the pharmacist gets there? Hardly. Just like I don't want an EMT showing up when I call the police for an intruder. We are putting a huge burden on law enforcement.
    So EMTs should be able to decide if they dispense narcan?

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