Enforce The Laws In Place????

  1. #1
    BGGreen's Avatar
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    Enforce The Laws In Place????

    Having followed this "Public vs. Private" argument for many years, and having heard valid arguments on BOTH sides; it's starting to remind me more & more of our Federal Government!! Can't make the existing law work, let's create a new one that won't work either!!

    We've heard various settlements offered such as:

    1. Separate the publics and privates for playoffs only.
    2. Separate the publics and privates totally.
    3. Ban all private schools.
    4. Ban private and independent schools.
    5. Ban privates, independents and open enrollment schools.
    6. Limit the enrollment areas of private schools.
    7. Limit all schools enrollment areas.
    8. Allow out-of-state players in certain border areas.
    9. Ban out-of-state players in private schools.
    10. Ban all out-of-state players.
    11. Multiple combinations of the above!!

    I think anyone who looks OBJECTIVELY at this situation will realize that the outright cheaters or those who bend the rules exist at all levels--Private, Public and Independent--and likewise realize that the vast majority of schools--Private, Public and Independent--Follow those same rules and run basicly clean programs!!

    Simply put, if you take the emotion out of the arguments; the problems seem very simple to me!! Enforce the laws in place, and punish the offenders severely enough to discourage similar behavior by other institutions. The KHSAA has many rules on the books regarding recruiting, phoney moves, out-of-district kids, etc.--ENFORCE THEM!!!! Quit trying to create new rules, laws, by-laws, playoff structures, etc.--Simply punish those who break the rules!!!!

    Is this concept too rational, too obvious, make too much sense--Why is no one touting this solution??
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    That is one of the best posts I have read regarding this fiasco.

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    BGGreen's solution is good. My addendum would be that the rules, while being strictly enforced, should be enforced without prejudice in regard to whether the "offender" is public or private. Further, when accusations are made, the accuser should be publicly identified- no more anonymous telephone calls. Finally, if a particular school is guilty of repeated baseless accusations, that school should be severely punished- possibly the same punishment that it sought to cause for the school it falsely accused. In other words, let's make all schools accountable on both ends of the issue.

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    Great post but...

    Is this concept too rational, too obvious, make too much sense--Why is no one touting this solution??
    Super question. The answer is unfortunate.

    The goal of at least some of the prop 20 backers is not fix existing problems. The goal is to eliminate competition so that more championship trophies can go into THEIR school. Since the real reason for competative inequity is caused by legal, allowed practices the prop 20 backers must resort to the cheater labeling. Just cleaning up the current practices or severly punishing the periodic offenders will not get the result that prop 20 backers are looking for. This is because even if everything was done 100% legal and clean the privates will continue to have theoretical advantages.

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    Great proposal in theory. Won't work in reality. Reason sometimes in situations there is not proving who is doing what and what needs to be enforced. The example that I posted several weeks back is an example of what I mean. An MSer from Meade County receives a unsolicited package promoting the Jefferson County private schools. She is not Catholic and just happens to be the best female basketball player in the county. NO OTHER MS player in Meade County received this information.

    From my understanding the KHSAA investigated and felt it was recruiting but WHO sent it? No way to find out. No one to punish in enforcing the rules.

    Let's say my child attends a private Christian school and plays on an AAU team with a child that attends a public school AND ALSO do not attend church anywhere. The children become friends and I talk to the parents about the love of Jesus Christ and they begin to attend my church and we discuss their child attending the private school with my child even though they live in another county. Is this legal? I would say I am recruiting. Is KHSAA to get into conversations among parents?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    Great proposal in theory. Won't work in reality. Reason sometimes in situations there is not proving who is doing what and what needs to be enforced. The example that I posted several weeks back is an example of what I mean. An MSer from Meade County receives a unsolicited package promoting the Jefferson County private schools. She is not Catholic and just happens to be the best female basketball player in the county. NO OTHER MS player in Meade County received this information.

    From my understanding the KHSAA investigated and felt it was recruiting but WHO sent it? No way to find out. No one to punish in enforcing the rules.

    Let's say my child attends a private Christian school and plays on an AAU team with a child that attends a public school AND ALSO do not attend church anywhere. The children become friends and I talk to the parents about the love of Jesus Christ and they begin to attend my church and we discuss their child attending the private school with my child even though they live in another county. Is this legal? I would say I am recruiting. Is KHSAA to get into conversations among parents?
    I'd wager that most "recruiting" really takes this kind of form. Conversations among parents, friends, classmates, etc. Certainly <b>not</b> in the form of official letters, etc. from the schools or atheletic departments. I'd go on to say that it's usually in the form of suggestions by well-intended people who believe that they have the students' best interests in mind. Just to use a completely hypothetical example, suppose you're confident that your 8th grade nephew in Bourbon County has the makings of a D1 linebacker (again, purely hypothetical). You might talk with your sister and discuss such things as helping her move into Scott or Fayette or Harrison County. If they can't or don't want to move, they might consider a daily commute for "Junior" down the newly widened SR-25 to LexCath or LCA for a few years. Any of those schools are going to be happy to have "Junior" but none of them had anything to do with recruiting him except that they have had recent success in football.

    "Junior" and his parents might even (and probably ought to) go visit some of those schools and check out their facilities. Next, they might even ask to talk with the head coachs too. It's starting to look pretty suspicious to a lot of folks now but it's still all about "Junior" and what's "best" for him.

    When "Junior" and his parents finally make their decision, it causes some hard feelings back in Bourbon County (there are still many who remember how great it used to be). It also prompts allegations that "Junior" was recruited but as far as what really happened, there's not really much anyone can do about it.

    Now, how's the KHSAA going to stop people from doing what they think is in their best interest? Then, how are they going to stop well-meaning people from doing what they think is in the best interest of their family, friends, neighbors, and aquaintances?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    Let's say my child attends a private Christian school and plays on an AAU team with a child that attends a public school AND ALSO do not attend church anywhere. The children become friends and I talk to the parents about the love of Jesus Christ and they begin to attend my church and we discuss their child attending the private school with my child even though they live in another county. Is this legal? I would say I am recruiting. Is KHSAA to get into conversations among parents?

    Are you an employee of this "school" or hold any power in the athletic program? If you answer no to both then I don't think you are recruiting.

    BTW...I am telling that you are trying to "recruit" people to your church

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    Let's say my child attends a private Christian school and plays on an AAU team with a child that attends a public school AND ALSO do not attend church anywhere. The children become friends and I talk to the parents about the love of Jesus Christ and they begin to attend my church and we discuss their child attending the private school with my child even though they live in another county. Is this legal? I would say I am recruiting. Is KHSAA to get into conversations among parents?
    You cannot restrict parents or children from talking. This is not recruiting unless one of the parents is employed by the school or some other official capacity. (like TD stated) There is a US Constitutional Amendment about Freedon of Speech. Trying to make this type of conversation "illegal" in the KHSAA world would contradict our basic freedoms and would lose every legal challenge.

    I have several children...2 in HS and 3 in grade school. Many parents have asked me how I and my 2 High schoolers like their schools. They are in the process of trying to find that "right" school for their child. So am I recruiting when I give my opinion? Am I in violation because I talked about the positive aspects of a particular school?

    This is the United States...why should we even consider punishing a child because his/her parents were trying to do what was best for that child?

    We should punish those schools who are going outside the rules!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xman85
    You cannot restrict parents or children from talking. This is not recruiting unless one of the parents is employed by the school or some other official capacity. (like TD stated) There is a US Constitutional Amendment about Freedon of Speech. Trying to make this type of conversation "illegal" in the KHSAA world would contradict our basic freedoms and would lose every legal challenge.

    I have several children...2 in HS and 3 in grade school. Many parents have asked me how I and my 2 High schoolers like their schools. They are in the process of trying to find that "right" school for their child. So am I recruiting when I give my opinion? Am I in violation because I talked about the positive aspects of a particular school?

    This is the United States...why should we even consider punishing a child because his/her parents were trying to do what was best for that child?

    We should punish those schools who are going outside the rules!
    I understand and do agree with you to a point. I do not necessarily believe the KHSAA should be ran like the NCAA but I do believe that the NCAA has held schools responsible for actions of their "boosters" when that "booster" has had no official capacity with the school.

    I agree with Pancho that I believe this is the form of most recruiting and not the coaching staff out hunting the MS leagues for players or any actions by any of the schools. I might be naive in this regard but I do not believe the vast majority of coaches are thumbing their noses as the rulebook and blatantly breaking the rules.

    As far as TD, Please do. Tell all you know about JC.

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    The boosters that the NCAA went after ..usually provided money, cars...etc...

    As far as the Catholic School leagues...there are several rules in place by the CSAA to limit your worries....For example....a CSAA coach cannot wear any high school affliated clothing to any practice or game.

    As far as discussing schools with other parents...I do not believe that should ever be included. As a parent you should be able to talk who you want to talk to...to make the best decision with your child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach

    As far as TD, Please do. Tell all you know about JC.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xman85
    The boosters that the NCAA went after ..usually provided money, cars...etc...

    As far as the Catholic School leagues...there are several rules in place by the CSAA to limit your worries....For example....a CSAA coach cannot wear any high school affliated clothing to any practice or game.

    As far as discussing schools with other parents...I do not believe that should ever be included. As a parent you should be able to talk who you want to talk to...to make the best decision with your child.
    I agree with you 100%. Do you also see, though, that recruiting through parents could be an issue that the KHSAA could never successfully enforce?
    If my child played on an AAU team and she became friends with a very good player, I would talk to those parents about their child attending school with my child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    I agree with you 100%. Do you also see, though, that recruiting through parents could be an issue that the KHSAA could never successfully enforce?
    If my child played on an AAU team and she became friends with a very good player, I would talk to those parents about their child attending school with my child.
    Good luck trying to stop this type of activity!! However, it is safe to say this happens at all institutions, not just public, private or independents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGGreen
    Good luck trying to stop this type of activity!! However, it is safe to say this happens at all institutions, not just public, private or independents.
    I would agree with both of your assertions. Too hard to try and stop and occurs almost everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    I agree with you 100%. Do you also see, though, that recruiting through parents could be an issue that the KHSAA could never successfully enforce?
    If my child played on an AAU team and she became friends with a very good player, I would talk to those parents about their child attending school with my child.
    Yes it could never be enforced and cannot be tried..because of constitutional rights.
    I really don't see a problem with your example unless you represent the school. (coach, teacher..etc,,,) If our girls became friends and enjoyed playing together...why wouldn't they be discussing going to school together....why wouldn't the parents be discussing if that would be the right choice for her? And asking you about the details and atmosphere of that school.....to make a better informed decision.....

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