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Page 3 of Originally Posted by OldRaider22 Beat me to it..... Allow me to explain! Both of my children are horrible standardized test-takers, and were placed in ... 40 comments | 3120 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldRaider22
    So, in essence, if I applied this theory to football, I would take all the kids when they were freshmen and give them a "placement test", have them come out and bench, squat, run the 40, etc. Then I'd place them in 3 groups, starters, backups, and never starters. And then they'd only practice against kids in their "level". Wonder how that'd work out?
    No, what its like in your analogy is this:

    They're not going to put the 6'4 275 pound starting DT up against the 3rd string 5'2 125 pound guard. How would that make the 3rd teamer any better? It would humiliate him and make him want to give up. How do you think that would work out?
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGGreen
    So ignore my comment and explain how these two approaches differ, because I know what they mean to me; and I'd like a comparison from someone who knows the current educational system.
    I contended your second question as both result in dumbing down and dispute that. Was not ignoring but clarifying the contention of your close.

    The differences are simple. Sort and place has been clearly shown to be a real hinderance to education for more than a few. Who is qualified to make that determination? A standards test? Hardly. Is it better to pass a general math or come close to passing an advanced math class? Sort and place continues to manage the middle, help the bottom and promote the top. Not a real fair educational mission, quite frankly. The option is a more expensive ciricculum offering and challenge to educational styles and practices. NCLB forced schools to address the needs via gap measurements and sub category measurements. For instance, all female science classes in early high school are proving more effective to performance vs. coed class. The challenge it is cheaper to teach one class of 25 vs. one of 15 and another of 10. Sort and place is easy, outmodeled and ineffective and who is qualified without true review to determine the limits of a 13/14 year old freshman to be?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    I contended your second question as both result in dumbing down and dispute that. Was not ignoring but clarifying the contention of your close.

    The differences are simple. Sort and place has been clearly shown to be a real hinderance to education for more than a few. Who is qualified to make that determination? A standards test? Hardly. Is it better to pass a general math or come close to passing an advanced math class? Sort and place continues to manage the middle, help the bottom and promote the top. Not a real fair educational mission, quite frankly. The option is a more expensive ciricculum offering and challenge to educational styles and practices. NCLB forced schools to address the needs via gap measurements and sub category measurements. For instance, all female science classes in early high school are proving more effective to performance vs. coed class. The challenge it is cheaper to teach one class of 25 vs. one of 15 and another of 10. Sort and place is easy, outmodeled and ineffective and who is qualified without true review to determine the limits of a 13/14 year old freshman to be?
    So you support NCLB, as a better alternative to the "sort and place" method; which would seem ridculous by pigeon-holing kids at an early age, especially boys who often seem to be "late-bloomers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGGreen
    So you support NCLB, as a better alternative to the "sort and place" method; which would seem ridculous by pigeon-holing kids at an early age, especially boys who often seem to be "late-bloomers".
    Absolutely. You do not know the full parameters of the program. Without NCLB there would no focus on the student - each student. Kentucky has one of the higher growth populations with English as a second language households. Using the old, these kids and a few are smart would be placed in the wrong program due to "test" results. That is just one of the programs.

    There is also a measurement of accountability and that is a fantastic feature of the program.

    Further, here in NorKY the only real issue with NCLB standards has been the special needs programs. Instead of sort and place, NCLB is forcing a total review and total redo of the educational effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    NCLB only real failing is that it needs to follow the student (each student) to determine progress. To simply test 7th graders year after year really does not provide progress. However, to test 7th grader, determine results and make changes, then test same at 8th, 9th, etc. would prove very effective. But, very expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    Absolutely. You do not know the full parameters of the program. Without NCLB there would no focus on the student - each student. Kentucky has one of the higher growth populations with English as a second language households. Using the old, these kids and a few are smart would be placed in the wrong program due to "test" results. That is just one of the programs.

    There is also a measurement of accountability and that is a fantastic feature of the program.

    Further, here in NorKY the only real issue with NCLB standards has been the special needs programs. Instead of sort and place, NCLB is forcing a total review and total redo of the educational effort. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    NCLB only real failing is that it needs to follow the student (each student) to determine progress. To simply test 7th graders year after year really does not provide progress. However, to test 7th grader, determine results and make changes, then test same at 8th, 9th, etc. would prove very effective. But, very expensive.
    Thanks for the insight--But then, being a little right leaning, I probably wanted to hear that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stickymitts
    Maybe they should have a "Sub .500 State Championship" for all sports. Than everyone can be proud of their mediocrity.
    It all began with KERA when noone failed and everyone was a winner.

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    Reading the paper this morning I feel better now as that the KDE 11 member board has final say and they are Governor appointed. The private schools are mainly full of Republican families and they will get old Ernie to put his hand in stopping the threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerKat
    Reading the paper this morning I feel better now as that the KDE 11 member board has final say and they are Governor appointed. The private schools are mainly full of Republican families and they will get old Ernie to put his hand in stopping the threat.
    Don't mean to ruin your breakfast but ole Ernie doesn't carry much clout right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerKat
    Reading the paper this morning I feel better now as that the KDE 11 member board has final say and they are Governor appointed. The private schools are mainly full of Republican families and they will get old Ernie to put his hand in stopping the threat.
    You may want to rethink that thought. The gov. has yet to appoint anyone close to a majority on this board. Further, the board is made up of the 7 judicial districts throughout the state. If you think the representative of Eastern KY is going to be influenced in this matter via the gov. I think you may be a little naive.

    The larger picture is the influence the Commissioner of Education may take on this point. Who does he work the most with? Try the superitendents throughout the state. He also has no interaction with private schools.

  10. #40
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    Big Ern will get it done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldRaider22
    Beat me to it.....

    Allow me to explain!

    Both of my children are horrible standardized test-takers, and were placed in what I thought were tracks lower than their capapbilities. Not long after each of them started their freshman years, they were moved into more challenging classes, in those that they showed a high proficiency in. For instance, because my son's reading scores were low on the entrance exam, he was placed in a lower level history class, due to the heavy load of reading comprehension required. Within a month he had moved up two tracks. Now, as a senior, he's taking AP classes, and advanced classes. The students and their counselors, and the parents are very involved in monitoring the studen'ts progress, and they will be challenged. No student is placed, and forgotten.

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