5 of the 8 State Finalist are Private. Does Propostion 20 hold water?

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  1. #181
    GR8BigBull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    GREAT, GREAT question.

    KHSAA might have to classify some of these sports in a compromise to get Prop 20 dropped.

    It might be numbers. I cannot access the KHSAA website presently but wonder if there are enough schools competing in some of the sports that limits your ability to classify.

    Have no clue why Track, Football and CC got classified and others have not.
    If we think really long and hard about this we all might come to a conclusion that classifying football and not some of the other sports mentioned boils back down to numbers. Even smaller 1A-2A schools can find the numbers to field a team for basketball.baseball,etc. With soccer, softball, field hockey, I would think that the shear number of schools even fielding teams in those sports would be a factor as well. Lets face it, the class system for football was a primitive means of "leveling" the playing field at a time that enrollment numbers at city schools were larger than most of the county schools and private schools. Some years back your major sports in high school were football, basketball, and track and why track got classified and basketball hasn't is beyond me. Even back then maybe the "basketball state' powers had a say in this. In today's world we see some of the schools with higher enrollment numbers such as PRP, Manual, Male, Ballard, Eastern, Butler,etc being able to field somewhat competitive teams. This can be attributed to various factors as coaching, facilities, tradition, NUMBERS. Through the due diligence of the private schools, they have increased enrollment numbers, improved facilities, built traditions, and put together some dominant sports teams. Maybe this is why football was classified years ago. Just a thought!
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by westsider
    I don't know that I would put all that much stock in those all-district teams ... they're so political. It wouldn't shock me if a few St. Xavier kids got left off some ballots and a few more Male and Manual players got on more than they deserved.
    Sounds a little like fixation to me!?!?!?

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRIDMANIAC
    I believe I included the word "some".
    My bad. I made the mistake of using perception as reality. I made the same mistake that some people make in dealing with all private schools. The point I wanted to make was too many people- I'm not implying you are one- go by perception and rumor and exchage that for reality in this and too many situations.

  4. #184
    Hearsay's Avatar
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    Here is a question:

    Using any of the 5 private finalists (X, T, NCC, LC, and OC) as examples, what % of the players on their varsity rosters receive some form of financial aid from the school?

    The NCAA limits the number of scholarships the 1A teams can have. Lets say the KHSAA limited private schools to having, say, 20 players per roster who could receive financial aid from the school. Would it have any effect on the number of players these schools could trot out there? On there on-field performance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hearsay
    Here is a question:

    Using any of the 5 private finalists (X, T, NCC, LC, and OC) as examples, what % of the players on their varsity rosters receive some form of financial aid from the school?

    The NCAA limits the number of scholarships the 1A teams can have. Lets say the KHSAA limited private schools to having, say, 20 players per roster who could receive financial aid from the school. Would it have any effect on the number of players these schools could trot out there? On there on-field performance?
    Only one? hole in your theory. The KHSAA already makes athletic based scholarships illegal at all levels. THe NCAA limits the number of athletic scholarships granted but there is no limit on the number of student athletes at any level that may recieve need based or academic based finincial aid.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell
    Only one? hole in your theory. The KHSAA already makes athletic based scholarships illegal at all levels. THe NCAA limits the number of athletic scholarships granted but there is no limit on the number of student athletes at any level that may recieve need based or academic based finincial aid.
    I'm talking about a proposed rule limiting financial aid derived from the school, for any purpose, academic or otherwise, given to a person who will be a player on a varsity roster.

    Otherwise, are you proposing to me that the majority of the players on the private school rosters are:

    1. Poor;
    2. Great students up through the 8th grade (we would have to define "great" of course)
    3. Also HAPPEN to be very good players?

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hearsay
    I'm talking about a proposed rule limiting financial aid derived from the school, for any purpose, academic or otherwise, given to a person who will be a player on a varsity roster.

    Otherwise, are you proposing to me that the majority of the players on the private school rosters are:

    1. Poor;
    2. Great students up through the 8th grade (we would have to define "great" of course)
    3. Also HAPPEN to be very good players?
    I am proposing nothing to you other then showing how your comparison to the NCAA rules regarding financial aid is erroneous and not germane to a discussion of private vs. public schools in Kentucky. There are already rules in place that make scholarships based on athletic prowess illegal. One thing I am not willing to compromise on is penalizing a student with a legitimate need for financial assistance by making them ineligible for athletics unless they play for a public school, that is unless you are going to apply the same standards to such need based assistance as free/reduced lunches in the public schools.

    Despite all of the grandstanding done saying otherwise there has not yet been any PROOF that students at private schools get financial aid based on anything other then need. The recent LexCath situation MAY have been a case where that happened and they are going to be punished for it, as they should be, because one constant in this whole argument has been private schools strongly supporting enforcement of rules that are on the books and stiff penalties for any (public or private) that break them.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell
    I am proposing nothing to you other then showing how your comparison to the NCAA rules regarding financial aid is erroneous and not germane to a discussion of private vs. public schools in Kentucky. There are already rules in place that make scholarships based on athletic prowess illegal. One thing I am not willing to compromise on is penalizing a student with a legitimate need for financial assistance by making them ineligible for athletics unless they play for a public school.

    Despite all of the grandstanding done saying otherwise there has not yet been any PROOF that students at private schools get financial aid based on anything other then need. The recent LexCath situation MAY have been a case where that happened and they are going to be punished for it, as they should be, because one constant in this whole argument has been private schools strongly supporting enforcement of rules that are on the books and stiff penalties for any (public or private) that break them.
    I hear the word "PROOF" an awful lot from supporters of private schools (I am one, by the way). Of course, "PROOF" more than likely could be obtained in a courtroom by merely subpoenaing a student's family income records, his middle school transcripts, and comparing them with the student's performance on the athletic field during his middle school years. I believe, then, that a strong circumstantial case would be made that the better athletes are being offered advantages that other low-income, good-student, non-athletes are not getting.

    But such an approach would border on the ridiculous, and Why? Because it would be a witch hunt based upon PERCEPTION and speculation. I presume by your response that the Privates are interested in PERCEPTION. If so, if X and T provide the majority of their players some form of financial aid, under the label (real or guise) that it is "need-based" or "scholarship," and continue to dress 100+ players per game, and blow everybody out, the PERCEPTION will be that they are cheating. So like Sam-I-Am (Dr. Seuss) "Try It and See." Try limiting financial aid to varsity players for 5-7 years. If the results are the same, if you continue to get the great on-the-field performance from players who are coming there not for sports, but for education, and also happen to be good on the field, I think the Publics will have their proof without digging into your books. If not, then the rule may be there to stay . . .

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hearsay
    I hear the word "PROOF" an awful lot from supporters of private schools (I am one, by the way). Of course, "PROOF" more than likely could be obtained in a courtroom by merely subpoenaing a student's family income records, his middle school transcripts, and comparing them with the student's performance on the athletic field during his middle school years. I believe, then, that a strong circumstantial case would be made that the better athletes are being offered advantages that other low-income, good-student, non-athletes are not getting.

    But such an approach would border on the ridiculous, and Why? Because it would be a witch hunt based upon PERCEPTION and speculation. I presume by your response that the Privates are interested in PERCEPTION. If so, if X and T provide the majority of their players some form of financial aid, under the label (real or guise) that it is "need-based" or "scholarship," and continue to dress 100+ players per game, and blow everybody out, the PERCEPTION will be that they are cheating. So like Sam-I-Am (Dr. Seuss) "Try It and See." Try limiting financial aid to varsity players for 5-7 years. If the results are the same, if you continue to get the great on-the-field performance from players who are coming there not for sports, but for education, and also happen to be good on the field, I think the Publics will have their proof without digging into your books. If not, then the rule may be there to stay . . .
    Very good explanation of your point. To take this a step further, think about a kid playing football for the Rams or Yellow-Jackets. This player goes to St. Stephen (not on Hess Lane) on 15th Street. This player may be in financial need but how does he fit into the grand scheme of things at X or T ? Did his father or uncle go to X or T ? Sure, he could end up being the first in a long line of Tigers or Rocks but at this time, what is the true interest in this kid ? I think it is great that the child would get the opportunity to get a private school education but let us quit painting all these rose colored pictures. This is the root of the problem on this side of the river. There is nothing that can be done to anyone if they could just come out and say we need to get these kids to compete with and stay ahead of the public schools. With need based financial aid nothing has been done illegally.

  10. #190
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    Here is an interesting article. Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer.

    http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?m...28&format=html

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by titletownclown
    Here is an interesting article. Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer.

    http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?m...28&format=html

    Dear Larry,

    Kick the privates out

    TD

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by titletownclown
    Here is an interesting article. Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer.

    http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?m...28&format=html



    Obviously, the Class AAAA winner will be a private school since St. Xavier and Trinity - who amazingly continue to always be placed in opposite brackets no matter how many times the alignment is changed - are in the title game.
    Wow he doesnt know much about AAAA football does he.

  13. #193
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    "Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer."

    Quote Originally Posted by titletownclown
    Here is an interesting article. Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer.

    http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?m...28&format=html
    Interesting editorial from the Advocate Messenger ... even if it does come off as a bitter rant. At the risk of getting off topic here, do the anti-private drones out there also assume that private schools are dominating in volleyball because of the ubiquitous financial aid that's available to fund that sport? How 'bout cross country? Does anyone out there actually pay tuition? How do these private schools stay in business?

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell
    I am proposing nothing to you other then showing how your comparison to the NCAA rules regarding financial aid is erroneous and not germane to a discussion of private vs. public schools in Kentucky.
    What do the gosh danged Germans have to do with anything?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by titletownclown
    Here is an interesting article. Note the heavy use of sarcasm by the writer.

    http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?m...28&format=html
    This guy ought to get a life . It's just a load of sour grapes and whining because there won't be any Title Town team in the finals this year .

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