"Since 1990, 11 schools have won 49 out of the 60 state titles"...

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Play No Work
    Private schools can expel a student for not conforming to the dress code.
    So Private schools have a lot more freedom in their discipline than a public school, correct? Just wanted to establish that we are discussing two different school environments, public and private. Difference does not make one better nor worse than the other, just different.

    Not to mention that every day of suspension, everyday of absence means a schools CATS scores go down. And so administrators are further limited on suspensions because their jobs are defined by their school's CATS scores and if they suspend a student than the have negatively affecting their CATS scores.

    Plus that expelled student is counted in the CATS scores. Our principals have had to administer the CATS test to students in prison/jail rather than have to take a zero on the test.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    So Private schools have a lot more freedom in their discipline than a public school, correct? Just wanted to establish that we are discussing two different school environments, public and private. Difference does not make one better nor worse than the other, just different.

    Not to mention that every day of suspension, everyday of absence means a schools CATS scores go down. And so administrators are further limited on suspensions because their jobs are defined by their school's CATS scores and if they suspend a student than the have negatively affecting their CATS scores.

    Plus that expelled student is counted in the CATS scores. Our principals have had to administer the CATS test to students in prison/jail rather than have to take a zero on the test.
    Understood.

    The CATS testing and expelled students hubbub are probably some reasons why some people prefer private schools.

    Believe it or not but some parents prefer a school where the principal can say to a student "Cut you hair, or don't bother coming back tomorrow."

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    So Private schools have a lot more freedom in their discipline than a public school, correct? Just wanted to establish that we are discussing two different school environments, public and private. Difference does not make one better nor worse than the other, just different.

    Not to mention that every day of suspension, everyday of absence means a schools CATS scores go down. And so administrators are further limited on suspensions because their jobs are defined by their school's CATS scores and if they suspend a student than the have negatively affecting their CATS scores.

    Plus that expelled student is counted in the CATS scores. Our principals have had to administer the CATS test to students in prison/jail rather than have to take a zero on the test.

    So, kicking out the private schools will do what to level the playing field? The same lack of ability to enforce disciplinary action will be a factor for public schools, CATS will still be in place, KERA will still be in place.....How does eliminating the private schools level the playing field for the publics?

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Play No Work
    Understood.

    The CATS testing and expelled students hubbub are probably some reasons why some people prefer private schools.

    Believe it or not but some parents prefer a school where the principal can say to a student "Cut you hair, or don't bother coming back tomorrow."
    100% AGREEMENT, bolded, in capital letters and anything else I can to emphasize that I agree with your post here.

    I have posted numerous times, you can see the private schools success start to grow in the mid-90's when KERA came into play and people started opting out of the public school and going to the private school where TRUE discipline can occur.

    Teachers prefer a school culture where parents tell their child that if the teacher says they need to do X, than X gets done. And I believe in the majority of instances that happens in private and not in public. My wife teaches elementary and had a grandmother and mother finally admit to doing their child's homework FOR them because they did not want to listen to their child whine about having to do homework.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom
    So, kicking out the private schools will do what to level the playing field? The same lack of ability to enforce disciplinary action will be a factor for public schools, CATS will still be in place, KERA will still be in place.....How does eliminating the private schools level the playing field for the publics?
    Publics competing against publics and privates vs. privates. Apples competing against apples and oranges against oranges. Is it the best scenario?

    NO. The best scenario is for every parent to value education and hard work and instill that in their children. But that is not something the KHSAA can address and a much bigger problem than what the props are designed to address.

  6. #66

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    So because of a system that the public schools put in place themselves that may have caused parents to opt out of public schools, those same public schools are now crying foul? Is that what you are trying to say regarding KERA?

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell
    So because of a system that the public schools put in place themselves that may have caused parents to opt out of public schools, those same public schools are now crying foul? Is that what you are trying to say regarding KERA?
    Yep. Whole situation stinks. But it is what it is and you try to figure out how to make the best of it. KHSAA is not and cannot change the reasons why it has become as it is. They can only try and handle the fallout of the changes.

    Also, public schools did not necessarily put in place KERA. Legislators in Frankfort did that. How many times is it up to us to control the mess created by Frankfort or DC?

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    Publics competing against publics and privates vs. privates. Apples competing against apples and oranges against oranges. Is it the best scenario?

    NO. The best scenario is for every parent to value education and hard work and instill that in their children. But that is not something the KHSAA can address and a much bigger problem than what the props are designed to address.

    Then, IMHO, this proposal is an exercise in futility. The problems will not go away, and the playing field will not be leveled. The ONLY thing this proposal is good for, is using the "leveling the playing field" to get rid of the privates. In the end, nothing will change, and everyone will still be looking for ways to fix something that isn't broken...when in actuality, the problem lies far deeper than sports, or public or private schools. Until the problems in society are addressed, there will never be any hope of making things better for public schools. As long as legislation overrules common rules of propriety in action and discipline by the schools, then there will be nothing but continuing, revolving door, problems that no one wants to tackle.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom
    Then, IMHO, this proposal is an exercise in futility. The problems will not go away, and the playing field will not be leveled. The ONLY thing this proposal is good for, is using the "leveling the playing field" to get rid of the privates. In the end, nothing will change, and everyone will still be looking for ways to fix something that isn't broken...when in actuality, the problem lies far deeper than sports, or public or private schools. Until the problems in society are addressed, there will never be any hope of making things better for public schools. As long as legislation overrules common rules of propriety in action and discipline by the schools, then there will be nothing but continuing, revolving door, problems that no one wants to tackle.
    Atta girl. Perfectly said, now can we close this forum? :fire:

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom
    Then, IMHO, this proposal is an exercise in futility. The problems will not go away, and the playing field will not be leveled. The ONLY thing this proposal is good for, is using the "leveling the playing field" to get rid of the privates. In the end, nothing will change, and everyone will still be looking for ways to fix something that isn't broke...when in actuality, the problem lies far deeper than sports, or public or private schools. Until the problems in society are addressed, there will never be any hope of making things better for public schools. As long as legislation overrules common rules of propriety in action and discipline by the schools, then there will be nothing but continuing, revolving door, problems that no one wants to tackle.
    I would agree with this as far as a long-term evaluation. Of course, you know well my view on the other issues. But those are not issues that the KHSAA can address. They can only address issues they can address.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    I would agree with this as far as a long-term evaluation. Of course, you know well my view on the other issues. But those are not issues that the KHSAA can address. They can only address issues they can address.

    So, what happens when the next target demographic school group is proposed for elimination? It will be a public school group of some sort. Will you support that proposal as well? Will you support elimination proposals to the point that everything is so segmented and dissected as to have no value whatsoever?

    The KHSAA cannot and should not address basic societal issues, nor should they even address educational issues. The fact of the matter is this, the KHSAA addresses sports related issues. Further, these proposals will address only a small, small, small part of the overall problem that public schools have. There will still be inequities, and as long as people use the lack of control over disciplinary action, special needs student population, CATS testing, KERA, etc as excuses why their schools cannot expect to compete in the athletic arena, this issue will arise again and again and again. But if this proposal passes, who will the next group of "advantaged" schools be?

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom
    So, what happens when the next target demographic school group is proposed for elimination? It will be a public school group of some sort. Will you support that proposal as well? Will you support elimination proposals to the point that everything is so segmented and dissected as to have no value whatsoever?

    The KHSAA cannot and should not address basic societal issues, nor should they even address educational issues. The fact of the matter is this, the KHSAA addresses sports related issues. Further, these proposals will address only a small, small, small part of the overall problem that public schools have. There will still be inequities, and as long as people use the lack of control over disciplinary action, special needs student population, CATS testing, KERA, etc as excuses why their schools cannot expect to compete in the athletic arena, this issue will arise again and again and again. But if this proposal passes, who will the next group of "advantaged" schools be?
    I don't think it will arise to such a degree again unless you have a push for classes. Reason being is that you will have publics that are under the same guidelines educationally competing against publics and privates under the same guidelines competing against privates. You will not have two different systems competing against each other.

    Except of course unless there is a push for classes but because of the nature of the Sweet 16 I don't see it gathering support as this might. It will get proposed at sometime in the future, might be 10-15 years, but I don't see support for it.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    I agree 100% of that.

    And that is a societal issue that the KHSAA cannot address. So, as an administrator as a public school, knowing you cannot change that problem, is it not reasonable that you try and alter what you CAN address. You create an environment that your students might find some success and develop the community pride that is now missing.

    Or do you simply stay status quo and let this monster of "the haves and the have-nots" continue to feed itself.

    I don't know if Prop 20 is the answer but what we have now is not the answer either.
    Why would you try to address the whole issue for everyone, when you could address your own issue? Are you telling me that Highlands, Danville, Boyle Co. etc. are the only public schools that can generate interest and support throughout the community? I seriously doubt it, but then again, I don't know. Instead of trying to change the whole picture, why don't they address the issues within their own "society" and community first. If that doesn't work for anyone, then maybe something does need to be done and maybe the privates and the other "super 11" as they call it, will be more understanding and willing to compromise.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickymitts
    As an administrator, I hope they'd be worried about building school spirit to help keep the kids in their school district, not limiting others to boundaries. Again IMO, this is where the hard work is missing. It's easier to make a proposal to fix the problem than to work your tail off and fix it yourself. Again, IMO.


    That's what I tried to say - maybe I should have read the next post before making a post of my own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelCrazy
    Why would you try to address the whole issue for everyone, when you could address your own issue? Are you telling me that Highlands, Danville, Boyle Co. etc. are the only public schools that can generate interest and support throughout the community? I seriously doubt it, but then again, I don't know. Instead of trying to change the whole picture, why don't they address the issues within their own "society" and community first. If that doesn't work for anyone, then maybe something does need to be done and maybe the privates and the other "super 11" as they call it, will be more understanding and willing to compromise.
    I thought we had discussed that when it was mentioned that a lot of the issues that are causing publics not to be able to compete against privates are issues that the KHSAA has no control. KHSAA is simply trying to manage the situation that confronts them. They cannot heal the ills of society.

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