Why doesn't Ohio have the public/private problem with their football?

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    theguru's Avatar
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    Why doesn't Ohio have the public/private problem with their football?

    Correct me if I am wrong but last year five of the six state champions were public schools. Add to that both the teams in the large school (D1) finals were public schools and three out of four of the semi-final large school teams were public schools.

    How come the public football schools in Ohio don't have the problem the public football schools in KY have? I realize this is just one year but as of late the the public and private schools in Ohio are pretty even at the top levels unlike KY where the top public schools are for the most part a JOKE compared to T and X. I am not knocking on T and X here but I would strongly assert that they are generally not as good as the top 4 or 5 private schools in Ohio year in and year out which means that the public schools in KY are no where near as good as the public schools in Ohio. Why are the public schools in KY such a weak link?

    Could it be that Ohio is a football state (with a lot of emphasis on doing well in football) vs. Kentucky where the emphasis is more on basketball than it is on football at many public schools?

    The bottom line is Prop 2 is not the solution for the public schools in KY, the solution is somewhere in the mirror for weak KY public football schools. Where in the mirror at your school is the million dollar question.

    Thoughts? Comments?
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    I think one of the keys is that Ohio has private teams in nearly every part of the state and the public teams in those areas welcome the competition and can compete at that level.

    In Cincy the GCL has 1 or 2 state contending teams every year but then there are also power public schools like Colerain now and Princeton in the 70s and 80s that are just as good.

    Same thing in Columbus and Cleveland and Toledo and just about every other area.

    In KY by contrast the private schools tend to be inside the golden triangle with NKY and Louisville leading in number with Lexington not far behind. Same for championships won. In NKY there aren't any problems because the public schools are just as good or better in football and just about everything else. In Louisville and Lexington there isn't quite that ratio especially in some sports. Add in an occasion private in other sports (like UHA and Rose Hill) and that's how you get to Prop 2.

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    Also, add in the fact that for the most part, private schools are dominating all girls sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach
    Also, add in the fact that for the most part, private schools are dominating all girls sports.
    How about sticking with the topic. If you want to talk girls sports start your own thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru
    How about sticking with the topic. If you want to talk girls sports start your own thread.
    Same comment for LPNW who brought other sports into the mix when it supported your point?

    I do think your original point is intriguing and it would be interesting to see what the differences are. Tennessee did have the problem and addressed it. Ohio apparently has not had the problem. I am interested in hearing what the differences are.

    I still contend that you track the recent increase in private athletic success and you will see the exodus from public schools to private schools began at or shortly after KERA came into being. Parents did not want their children going through all of the hoops that KERA brought with it and moved their children to schools that were EQUAL in academic abilities in educating their child but came without the hoops of CATS testing and portfolios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru
    Correct me if I am wrong but last year five of the six state champions were public schools. Add to that both the teams in the large school (D1) finals were public schools and three out of four of the semi-final large school teams were public schools.

    How come the public football schools in Ohio don't have the problem the public football schools in KY have? I realize this is just one year but as of late the the public and private schools in Ohio are pretty even at the top levels unlike KY where the top public schools are for the most part a JOKE compared to T and X. I am not knocking on T and X here but I would strongly assert that they are generally not as good as the top 4 or 5 private schools in Ohio year in and year out which means that the public schools in KY are no where near as good as the public schools in Ohio. Why are the public schools in KY such a weak link?

    Could it be that Ohio is a football state (with a lot of emphasis on doing well in football) vs. Kentucky where the emphasis is more on basketball than it is on football at many public schools?

    The bottom line is Prop 2 is not the solution for the public schools in KY, the solution is somewhere in the mirror for weak KY public football schools. Where in the mirror at your school is the million dollar question.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Two years ago I moved to the Youngstown, Ohio area and moved back to the Ashland area one year ago. I noticed the same thing with the public-private situation. It does not appear to be a problem. One thing I did notice is that football in Ohio, and I did watch a lot of Cardinal Mooney, Canfield, Poland, ect. play is at a different level. When you watch mooney play it is like watching a college game. They do love thier football in Ohio.

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    For one thing, Ohio has a slew of big schools that can match and exceed the enrollments of the larger Catholic schools ... that helps when trying to match the Moellers, Elders and St. Ignatiuses of the world in numbers and depth.

    Plus, Ohio is a football-centric state. Football has much more tradition and history there than it does in Kentucky, where a good portion of the schools have only had football for 40 years or less.

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    Population plays a HUGE part in it and cannot be overlooked when trying to compare Kentucky to Ohio. Football playing schools in Kentucky number just over 200 while in Ohio there are more than 700 schools playing football. When Kentucky has numbers to match, then football will become more even with Ohio. Until then, no way...you are trying to support your disdain for Prop 2 with an apples and oranges comparison.

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    Its apples and oranges to compare Kentucky and Ohio. Ohio has 11,464,042 people in the state and Kentucky has 4,173,405 people, that is almost 3 times the amount.

    Add to the fact that there are what, 30 or more schools that are the same size or bigger than T and X in cities and suburbs.


    They also have 3 classes not 6 like us.


    The whining of pro-football people is killing me on this site, the problem lies with the system now, not anything with basketball.

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    goherd, my point is the KY public schools are behind the curve in many cases. Nothing apples and oranges about that. However, you are right, my opinion of Prop 2 is that it is garbage.

    JD, first of all there are six divisions in Ohio vs. the four we had in KY. Now there are six classes in each state. Also, I really think you and I agree on a lot of this (after reading your post here). I believe we both agree that basketball in KY is ahead of football in KY in many respects in most schools. The point I am stressing is many of those same public schools (and powers that be) that are behind the football curve are more basketball friendly than football friendly and that basketball institution is holding football back. There is nothing wrong with basketball in KY. As a matter of fact, if most public schools would attack their football program like they do their basketball programs there wouldn't be a Prop 2.

    The problem with anything Prop 2 related is most public school football programs are no where near reaching their potential because of internal issues. Therefore, the answer for those public schools is in the mirror. If the public schools look anywhere but the mirror (and Prop 2 is looking elsewhere) it won't matter because the private schools in KY will do just as well because the public schools are not addressing the problem.

    Prop 2 is nothing more than a form of affirmative action rooted in ignorance.

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    I agree that the combo of population and 6 classes in Ohio make it much more likely to for their to be parity in the large-school class. Large metro areas have enough population to not feel the sting of losing players to Iggy, Moe, X, etc.

    However, I don't think KY going to 6 classes is going to stop T and X from dominating 6A football. The Henderson Countys, Ryles, Conners, etc still have the same issue: how do they make their football team as good as the big 2. The new prop does absolutely nothing for those schools because they've still got the big dogs to battle.

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    81, part of the argument for going to six classes is to create more enrollment parity so that some of the smaller large schools no longer have to play the big boys.

    Conner is a great example, they were horrible, they got a good coach from Ohio and went to the top of their class, that coach left and Conner went back to horrible. I agree with you, Prop 2 isn't going to help Conner one ounce, the solution at Conner is at Conner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru
    81, part of the argument for going to six classes is to create more enrollment parity so that some of the smaller large schools no longer have to play the big boys.
    I agree. The proposal really only helped the 4A schools that are now not 6A schools. Since Beechwood is still 1A it certainly isn't offering any more opportunity for the traditional 1A schools that were on the lower end of the 1A scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru
    goherd, my point is the KY public schools are behind the curve in many cases. Nothing apples and oranges about that. However, you are right, my opinion of Prop 2 is that it is garbage.

    JD, first of all there are six divisions in Ohio vs. the four we had in KY. Now there are six classes in each state. Also, I really think you and I agree on a lot of this (after reading your post here). I believe we both agree that basketball in KY is ahead of football in KY in many respects in most schools. The point I am stressing is many of those same public schools (and powers that be) that are behind the football curve are more basketball friendly than football friendly and that basketball institution is holding football back. There is nothing wrong with basketball in KY. As a matter of fact, if most public schools would attack their football program like they do their basketball programs there wouldn't be a Prop 2.

    The problem with anything Prop 2 related is most public school football programs are no where near reaching their potential because of internal issues. Therefore, the answer for those public schools is in the mirror. If the public schools look anywhere but the mirror (and Prop 2 is looking elsewhere) it won't matter because the private schools in KY will do just as well because the public schools are not addressing the problem.

    Prop 2 is nothing more than a form of affirmative action rooted in ignorance.

    I agree.

    The problem with sports in general is principles and school are worried about spending and making money, period.

    Coming from a football crazy school like Belfry you will see some crazy stuff.

    We have a GREAT coach in Phillip Haywood and he got a lot out of not so much in my mind for the longest time. The feeder schools here had 1 good coach, Keith May, for a loooong and you would get a good coach every now and then sprinkled in.

    The problem is AD's in schools. The AD should be paid a salary to do what the title says, Direct Athletics. I'm not talking about $3,000 or whatever they make. I'm talking on par with a teacher. It shouldn't be a basketball coach or football coach. Look at the schools that have problems in one sport or another. I bet the sport the school is strongest in is what background the AD has. Belfry - Coach Haywood is AD - football school, Bell Co. - Dudley Hilton is AD - football school I'm sure there are others. I am not saying that they show favoritism or blasting these guys, but how much time can they truly devote to other sports if they are coaches and athletic director?

    Ad's should run a schools feeder league's/ schools athletics so that everyone is on the same page for the good of the school/programs. They should also be in charge of all fund raising for these programs, that way when you get a good coach in a particular sport, he/she is not stretched too thin doing the other things beside coaching and promoting their programs.

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    It is hard to make a comparison between Ohio and Kentucky in football. I grew up in Ohio and from experience I can tell you that all sports are treated equally in Ohio. The schools in Ohio have a graduation test that all publics have to take, but not privates. It has not affected enrollment at the publics. I feel maybe the biggest thing going for Ohio high schools is that the parents and the kids in each local school district identify from a young age of being a part of that district. This ingrains (sp?) a spirit for a particular school. There is not a whole lot of open enrollment in Ohio, and where there is there still equity in sports among the schools.

    In Kentucky, the only sport that is taken seriously by most public schools is basketball. Until the people of a school system begin to care about all sports equally, then there will not be parity. The six class system is a nice idea, by giving more schools the opportunity to compete. However, as stated earlier, this does not really affect the 1A's and T, X, NCC and others. I feel that until public school communities begin to take pride in their schools and push them to excell in all sports, parity will not happen and we will continue to have this on going debate.

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