All A Classic - Getting Away From It's Roots?

Page 3 of According to you nothing has changed about the All-A enrollment from the time it went statewide (1990 425 or less in grade 10-12) to now (2003 425 or l... 62 comments | 6980 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #31
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    password's Avatar
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    Yeah but if football re-alignment is not for 4 more years would they be out until 2007 or would they have to prove their case to get in?

    I still say if you have a Frosh class of about 270 and only 420 in the other three classes you have a lot of problems and basketball isn't one of them.

    BTW, my details are fuzzy but a few years ago some schools were saying it was unfair to make them be in 4A because their senior classes were so much smaller than other schools senior classes when both had the same number when those kids were freshmen.
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  2. #32

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    I'm not arguing about your point about the large freshmen classes being a bigger problem than basketball, but it is reality.

    If you simply use 9-12 numbers you are measuring the size of School A against School B. A huge majority of schools are 9-12, so if you use that measure then you don't have to worry about subtracting freshmen classes.

    It comes down to what is the fairest way to compare school size, and you should use the number that is the most prevalent in Kentucky schools, which is 9-12.

    I think the All "A" realigns after this year, so Jackson may get booted out even under the current rules.

  3. #33
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    I will be glad to speak for Stan

    As a charter member representing the 12th Region, I was present at the state-wide organizational meeting in 1989. The "All A" has not varied, or strayed, from it's intent and purpose. To showcase the small schools in the state!
    The 425 cut-off in grades 10-12 has been etched in concrete! (Notice the All A has always counted the students in grades 10-12, while the KHSAA uses 9-12).
    Why did we do this? At the time many 9th graders attended a middle school or a junior high. Many high schools were 10-12. To be fair to all, using grades 10-12 was a unanimous decision by the All A board.
    There is no need to "Get back to it's roots". The All A has never been away.
    And yes, the numbers have to be correct; they come from the State Department of Education.

  4. #34

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    The KHSAA also used 10-12 at the time but changed to 9-12 soon after, which is what the All "A" Classic should do. I doubt "many" high schools were 10-12 at the time, and I know they aren't now. Most are 9-12. There are probably more 7-12 than there are 10-12.

  5. #35
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    You guys are discussing numbers. Let's look at it this way:
    I will use your numbers, I have not researched but you guys seem to be pretty much in agreement about the number of schools. You have 281 Schools, 127 participate in the All "A". That is 45%. If you look at a 4 class system it should be 25% or a 3 class system 33%. If you have nearly half of the teams in the state participating how can it be a small school showcase? Surely we can agree that if you never change the number and enrollment continues to decline eventually most teams in the state will be eligible. There must be a lowering of the number much as some of us get cost of living adjustments on our paychecks.
    I also question the fact that the bigger schools participating have anything to do with the money factor. It may have some effect on Regional Tourneys but at the state level I disagree. Each year we see several smaller private schools at Richmond and they bring small crowds. The Tourney continues to thrive thru corporate sponsorship. Also your regionals may be attended better by the smaller school fans if they felt they had a chance to advance. If there is a mismatch, regardless of who the opponents are big or small, public or private you will have smaller crowds. That's the fact.

    By The Way: The All A Classic is dominated by the private schools, whether they be big or small in size. There have been 13 tournaments with: 9 Champions, 5 Runner-Ups. And if you exclude Regions 12 Thru 16 who have sent only 2 private school participants to the All A State, over half of the teams winning Regional titles have been private schools. 73 out of 143 participants have been private schools.

    Stan started the tourney but Dayton has yet to advance to the state level. Maybe there are more things that need to be addressed than enrollment size.

  6. #36
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    I don't understand what the problem is....the All A people have set their enrollment criteria for the tournament and it shouldn't be influenced by anything else -- especially football. Keep in mind, the All A Classic is not recognized by the KHSAA -- they are two different entities.

    I think the reason why the All A goes by enrollment figures in grades 10-12 is because the ninth grade is the most commonly failed grade in high school, therefore numbers are skewered somewhat by including them. That is also why the freshman class usually has the highest enrollment numbers in a school because of the retention rate.

    The 425 number has been a constant since the tourney went statewide 13 years ago.

    As far as the schools who are close to the 425 number and may exceed it, are they really the factors here? Like TBF said, the private schools like Lexington Catholic and University Heights have pretty much dominated in the past 13 years. Both had small enrollments until LexCath grew and moved to 3A size.

  7. #37

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    "It shouldn't be influenced by anything else, especially football."

    How do I say this so some of you will understand.

    FOOTBALL NUMBERS WERE USED IN 1990 TO SET THE ENROLLMENT GUIDELINES FOR THE ALL "A" CLASSIC.

    The numbers not changing for 13 years isn' t something to be proud of when over half the schools in the state are going to qualify in a few years. The original point of the All "A" was to give the small schools a chance to compete for a state championship, and it is getting away from that.

    "As for the schools who are close to the 425 number and may exceed, are they really factors?"

    I think JACKSON COUNTY is a factor. They've won the last two state championships and may win another this year even though they have over 600 students in high school.

    And are saying that just being a FEW over the number isn't a really big deal? What's the point of having numbers if they REALLY don't matter.

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    HDE,

    If it helps any the ALL-A program I got last night has enrollment numbers listed for grades 9-12 instead of the normal 10-12 so maybe it is headed that way.

  9. #39

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    10-12 was never normal, at least not since the late 1960s.

    Password, you still haven't answered by question about the KHSAA using 10-12 numbers before 1990 for football. You said you thought I was wrong, so I won't let it die until you respond.

  10. #40

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    Originally posted by password
    Jackson County is listed as having 404 students in 10-12 in the 2002 All-A. I agree they should not be eligible if they exceed 425 but if they are still ata 404 why should they go?
    that would mean jackson co would have 271 freshman...guess this will be their last year for a while

  11. #41

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    Am I missing the boat or what?

    I have heard purple&gold on the radio during the All A. The enrollment # has always been 425 in upper 3 grades! Why HDE says the All A is getting away from its roots???? I'm missing something; if the All A has keep the same enrollment figures over the last decade, how can they get away from their roots?
    I guess it doesn't or shouldnt matter if most schools were 10-12, 9-12, or 7-12 back in 1990. The All A members chose 10-12 and have stuck with it through the years. More power to them!
    Now, on Jackson County or any school that has 220 freshmen and the following year, 75 don't make it to be sophomores, someone on here said it best-----they have more troubles than playing basketball.

  12. #42
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    Knute:

    Is it not getting away from the main idea if you don't adjust the enrollment figure to reflect a loss in enrollment in schools statewide? The idea was to have a tournament where your smaller schools could compete for a championship against like size schools. If you have continued enrollment decline across the state you eventually have most of the teams in the state competeing for the championship. What is the point in that? We have that now with the Sweet Sixteen. I can't believe anyone would think that keeping the number the same would mean you are staying with your roots. That is frankly ridiculous!

    If a gas station owner stayed with his roots and kept gas .49 a gallon, like it was when he opened his station then that poor man has no gas station OR food in his home for that matter because he is BROKE!!!

  13. #43

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    School enrollments around the state, at least most of the state, are dropping. The original All "A" Classic took in fourth of the football playing schools in the state and the non-football playing schools that fell under the 425 enrollment category.

    Now, the All "A" is taking in about a third of the football-playing schools in the state and that number is likely to continue growing without some adjustments. Cawood, a 3A school this season in football, will soon qualify for the All "A" if adjustments in the numbers aren't made.

    I didn't start this thread so I never made the statement about the All "A" getting away from its roots. I enjoy the All "A" and think it is one of the greatest ideas to come along in high school sports. I just think the tournament should make some adjustments in numbers to maintain its original purpose, which is allowing true Class A schools to compete for a state title.

  14. #44

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    I have enjoyed the thread and catching up on some of the issues...involving the All A....
    I'll be watching the 15th regional tournament...and after reading some of the thought's and history of this tournament....all I can say is good luck and may the All A continue to grow and give back to some of the commonwealth's smaller schools.....long live the dream of Stan Steidel...

  15. #45

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    Frankly, this is really confusing!

    On one hand, you don't want more teams to be represented in the ALL A . On the other hand, it has been noted on here many times - private schools dominate the All A. (I believe the UHA has less than100 students, but has won the tourney more than any other school) Has adding certain schools caused a decline in the performance of the small private schools?
    And my next question, and I direct this to Purple&Gold, have you (All A) added schools? I believe the number has stayed relatively the same.
    Sure, for every Whitesburg and Corbin that's been added- there's a Lexington Catholic, or Garrard County that has outgrown the All A.
    HDE- maybe it your part of the state?? (I'm not sure where you are located-Eastern KY) enrollments are dropping. But this is not the case in most of the state. The county schools are growing and splitting. (Next year there will be 3 Oldhams, there are already 3 Hardins) Remember when there was only 1 school in each county? WOW, I don't think schools are dwindling!
    To me it makes perfect sense to keep the # the same -425! If an independent falls to that #, add it to the All A. Why? Because I'm sure a county school will increase its enrollment the same year!

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